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In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

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Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#51

Post by sago »

"nothing ... is more important than officers’ personal security"

I'm not sure this is true. If it were, why would they put themselves into potentially violent situations? It seems to me the priorities are

1. Make the arrest. 2. Officer safety. 3. Public safety. 4. Justice.

In that order. They are related, to get 4 you sometimes need 1-3. But not always.

'Militarised police' is correct, because this corresponds exactly to what we'd want of our warfighters.

1. Carry out the mission. 2. Be safe. 3. Keep 3rd parties safe. 4. Be ethical and moral.

It's a far cry from 'to protect and serve'. Personally I'd be happy with a squatter in an empty apartment getting away more often in return for not deploying an armed raid with no confirmation based on a single report.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#52

Post by DanBC »

an_ko wrote: post #38
pjc50 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, military forces are bound by international treaties to restrict violence against civilians. Police are not. Normally domestic politics in a free country would regard the random deaths of civilians as a bad thing, but the US racial divide means that enough white people regard black people being shot by the police as a positive outcome rather than a negative one.

> enough white people regard black people being shot by the police as a positive outcome rather than a negative one Could you elaborate? "Enough" for what?

"Enough" in that you have people on HN saying pretty much that most of the black people who get shot and killed by police deserved it and that black people are stupid violent criminals so it's no wonder they get killed so often, and that if only they were docile and compliant in the face of police harassment they wouldn't get shot so much.

It's fucking weird seeing that stuff on HN, and it's scary to think how those thoughts look in other less restricted forums.

It's the 21st centuary and there's only just a US president prepared to say "black lives matter". There have been a string of killings by police of innocent black people, and juries refuse to convict.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#53

Post by an_ko »

aikah wrote: post #48
an_ko wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> enough white people regard black people being shot by the police as a positive outcome rather than a negative one Could you elaborate? "Enough" for what?

black people = thugs in most white people's minds. Of course there is always one black guy they like,"but he's different hey ?"...

[citation needed]

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#54

Post by suprgeek »

In the US the Police are a "Guns & Badges" Culture thru & thru. Only the truly "macho" are regarded with respect. There is no concept of de-escalation.

The bigger problem is that the policies & incentives are built to reinforce this. They get promotions/assets based on forfeiture laws, weapons based on Pentagon Surplus & publicity based on Shootouts. No one ever got promoted for not shooting a (potentially innocent) suspect. Very very rarely does a cop get prosecuted for pulling a gun or inflicting other violence.

SO put a bunch of arrogant, power seeking people in a system which glorifies violence & rewards forfeitures. What else do you expect?

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#55

Post by Elrac »

tajen wrote: post #33
jxm262 wrote: post #12

This is a really well written article. This also echo's alot of the sentiment that many people have. I remember reading recently about the differences in police training from Germany vs the US. One of the things that stuck out at me was the huge amount of hours they spend training to "not" shoot, and learning how to de-escalate situations. It's no wonder we have so many issues here in the US, it makes me sad.

What does it mean for us Europeans, who still have, for the moment, more lenient police? Should we expect that America uprises against their own police? Draw a Fergusson every 3 months? Becomes either less economically stable or more economically agressive? Should we expect that US' political influence requires us to step up our police, the same way France escalated an NSA-style law six months ago? It worries me that…

For what it's worth, I feel the same way as you do about the US, and I'm a US citizen. I've told friends that I may return to the US "when the US becomes a democracy again."

Unchecked police brutality is just one of a complex of problems I see in the news: The private for-profit prison industry that lobbies for more and longer incarcerations, the bail-and-debt system, civil forfeitures, plea bargaining, the unabashed wiretapping and widespread weakening of 4th Amendment rights... if you describe the US system of "justice" to a neutral party, he will guess you're talking about Russia or maybe North Korea.

To answer your question, whether that state reaches Europe depends on whether the US' war of the rich on the poor spreads to Europe. The statesmen of the US are cheaply purchased pawns of various rich industries, and law & order are replaced by high-tech feudalism. If Europe finds itself ruled by corrupt evil clowns like the US is, then we'll see similar conditions here.

That said, I have no idea how it will go. I have no knack at all for predicting politics. I'm betting on kicking the bucket before shit hits the fan.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#56

Post by fixxer »

vowelless wrote: post #50
jxm262 wrote: post #12

This is a really well written article. This also echo's alot of the sentiment that many people have. I remember reading recently about the differences in police training from Germany vs the US. One of the things that stuck out at me was the huge amount of hours they spend training to "not" shoot, and learning how to de-escalate situations. It's no wonder we have so many issues here in the US, it makes me sad.

> One of the things that stuck out at me was the huge amount of hours they spend training to "not" shoot, and learning how to de-escalate situations. I think that the likelihood of civilians being armed in the US is a lot higher than in Germany, so I can imagine why American cops are a little more paranoid. I've seen cops put a hand on their gun as they approach suspects, which I think is part of the training here. I…

When I was growing up in LA in the 80s, several family friends were cops in rougher areas like Hawaiian Gardens, etc. I recall hearing multiple times that engaging with violent force was discouraged because they never knew what kind hellfire was going to erupt. They proceeded with extreme caution and did not act like warrior cops. If there was any doubt, they backed way up.

Now, I'm well aware of the sins of LAPD in that era, but with regard to use of violent force and this damned finger-on-the-trigger mentality, I really feel like this has been a post-2003 evolution in tactics. It wasn't always like this. I don't remember being nervous about getting shot during a traffic stop. Hell, I can even recall two distinct occasions where SWAT was deployed to my house because I had hit the emergency button on my phone (rediculous, I know). In those cases, guns were drawn, but they weren't aimed and extreme caution was taken.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#57

Post by pjc50 »

an_ko wrote: post #38
pjc50 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, military forces are bound by international treaties to restrict violence against civilians. Police are not. Normally domestic politics in a free country would regard the random deaths of civilians as a bad thing, but the US racial divide means that enough white people regard black people being shot by the police as a positive outcome rather than a negative one.

> enough white people regard black people being shot by the police as a positive outcome rather than a negative one Could you elaborate? "Enough" for what?

Enough that whenever it happens, there are plenty of people keen to manufacture justifications for it being the dead person's fault. If hundreds of Americans were being shot every year by terrorists, there would be an outcry and a demand to invade somewhere. If hundreds of Americans were being killed every year by a faulty product or staff negligence, there would be legal outcry and improved procedures and quality control.

Reducing deaths caused by police requires recognising that every death caused by a police gun - which includes those of violent people with criminal records - as a failure of process.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#58

Post by hackaflocka »

This article doesn't add up. Even highly-paid local government servants (i.e. the police in this case) aren't usually this stupid.

What it's claiming is: if someone calls up the police to report that a squatter is occupying a neighboring apartment, there's a SWAT raid on that apartment?

Nope. This was either in a very high-security zone, or there was some other extenuating circumstance.

Here's my guess at why they didn't bother with asking the security guard or management, and just went with the word from a neighbor. The neighbor is a high-ranking member of the local SWAT organization.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#59

Post by StavrosK »

grecy wrote: post #47
jxm262 wrote: post #12

This is a really well written article. This also echo's alot of the sentiment that many people have. I remember reading recently about the differences in police training from Germany vs the US. One of the things that stuck out at me was the huge amount of hours they spend training to "not" shoot, and learning how to de-escalate situations. It's no wonder we have so many issues here in the US, it makes me sad.

> differences in police training from Germany vs the US To highlight this even more, Police in Germany used only 85 bullets in all of 2001 [1]. Given their population is about 4x lower than the US, the equivalent would be the Police in all of the US using only ~340 bullets for a year. In reality, The police in the US have KILLED over 400 people this year already. [1] http://www.thewire.com/global/2012/05/german-polic…

Making the fact that they did it with only 340 bullets all the more impressive!

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#60

Post by Mithaldu »

vowelless wrote: post #50
jxm262 wrote: post #12

This is a really well written article. This also echo's alot of the sentiment that many people have. I remember reading recently about the differences in police training from Germany vs the US. One of the things that stuck out at me was the huge amount of hours they spend training to "not" shoot, and learning how to de-escalate situations. It's no wonder we have so many issues here in the US, it makes me sad.

> One of the things that stuck out at me was the huge amount of hours they spend training to "not" shoot, and learning how to de-escalate situations. I think that the likelihood of civilians being armed in the US is a lot higher than in Germany, so I can imagine why American cops are a little more paranoid. I've seen cops put a hand on their gun as they approach suspects, which I think is part of the training here. I…

No direct comparison, but, police officers killed in germany:

http://www.corsipo.de/ (probably incomplete, but In the usa:

http://www.governing.com/gov-data/safety-justice/US-Law-Enfo...

Extrapolating that into numbers:

DEU: Meanwhile the number of police kills are roughly:

DEU: ~1 person killed by police per 10 mio citizens :::: USA: ~12.5 persons killed by police per 10 mio citizens

The ratios are not all that far apart:

DEU: ~1.7 persons killed per police officer death :::: USA: ~2.7 persons killed per police officer death

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