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In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

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Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#151

Post by Evolved »

ghufran_syed wrote: post #119
acdha wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember that the police have far more resources available. Once someone demonstrates that they're actually a threat, the police still have the option of applying superior force but they have far more options for controlling when and where that happens and ensuring that innocent bystanders aren't needlessly exposed. One example where the U.S. seems to be getting it right is high-speed chases, which seem to be becomin…

"One example where the U.S. seems to be getting it right is high-speed chases" If true, that may be because they are usually video recorded by news channels. If a civilian is injured during the chase, there's lots of dramatic footage for the prosecution lawyer to show the jury, before asking the officers in charge to answer under oath why they made the decisions they made. Sounds like pretty strong evidence in favor…

"One example where the U.S. seems to be getting it right is high-speed chases"

If true, that may be because they are usually video recorded by news channels. If a civilian is injured during the chase, there's lots of dramatic footage for the prosecution lawyer to show the jury, before asking the officers in charge to answer under oath why they made the decisions they made.

Sounds like pretty strong evidence in favor of mandatory police body-worn cameras, along with a right of citizens who are on the receiving end of a police encounter to obtain and review the footage. There's always the worry that the camera would be 'accidentally' turned off by the police, or that the footage would be lost if it showed anything embarrassing to the police, so to make them effective, you probably need a change in the law such that any discrepancy between the officer's version of events and the citizens is AUTOMATICALLY decided by judge/ jury in favor of the citizen if the 'mandatory' video footage is for some reason unavailable.

I don't think automatically ruling in the civilian's favor is a good idea because as we all know, tech breaks sometimes. I'm quite certain the body cameras exceed the standard definition of durable goods but they, like any other complex electronics, are susceptible to shock, moisture, fatigue, etc. and can break. All it takes is a landmark case of cop vs. civilian where the camera legitimately broke but the cop was in the right yet cannot prove it and then their life is ruined if the case is automatically decided in the civilian's favor.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#152

Post by Mithaldu »

meowface wrote: post #129
grecy wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> differences in police training from Germany vs the US To highlight this even more, Police in Germany used only 85 bullets in all of 2001 [1]. Given their population is about 4x lower than the US, the equivalent would be the Police in all of the US using only ~340 bullets for a year. In reality, The police in the US have KILLED over 400 people this year already. [1] http://www.thewire.com/global/2012/05/german-polic…

To be fair, far fewer people own guns in Germany than they do in the US. Police in Germany likely carry weapons to deal with knives and other close range weapons, while police in the US carry weapons to deal with long range weapons.

Nope, they carry guns.

https://www.google.de/search?q=polizei+deutschland&tbm=isch

People here don't mind because they know german cops are trained to use them responsibly.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#153

Post by TeMPOraL »

RoboSeldon wrote: post #79
eric_h wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Within about 3-5 feet, a knife is just as dangerous as a firearm.

Lets try a metal experiment, you have your knife and 3 enemies attack you at the same time. How many can you neutralize from 5 feet with your knife ? Suppose you have special training and you can throw your knife and kill one of them, you still have 2 ... Try the same mental experiment when you have a firearm in your hand ... You can inflict much more damage with a firearm even without special training (not everybody…

5 feet may not be enough for you to shoot more than one person even if you have your weapon already drawn. When fighting opponents at close range you'd probably be more successful with your knife - especially if you know how to handle one. It's easier to hit with a knife than with a bullet in close quarters, and as 'harshreality suggests, you can disable your opponents in ways the gun wouldn't let you, by cutting through their nerves.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#154

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

michaelt wrote: post #116
colechristensen wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't overlook the very likely strong coupling between the bullets fired 'at' and 'by' police and how it likely goes both ways. People want to shoot at police because police shoot at people so often is probably just as true as the converse. This is likely both true at the macro and micro level. That is, police behavior escalates individual situations into shootings which otherwise, with better training, could have en…

People want to shoot at police because police shoot at people so often is probably just as true as the converse. Could you add some more detail on this point? I'm having difficulty thinking of a situation I could be in that would be improved by me shooting at the police? I mean, even if they're honest good guy cops surely they'll call in backup and arrest you and make a really enthusiastic effort to put you in jail f…

I'm not sure what he's getting at except maybe that penalties for some crimes are so severe here in the states as to incentivize escaping apprehension by any means necessary. I'm thinking about something like drug trafficking where you can go to prison for life.

In general, though, I would agree with you that there can't be many situations in which your life would be improved if you shot at a police officer. By my observation any time someone does that it has the effect of enraging every cop in the land.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#155

Post by Evolved »

eric_h wrote: post #75
RoboSeldon wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this may have an influence, it's important to remember that police officers are also trained to be wary of knives Are you seriously comparing a knife with a firearm ?

Within about 3-5 feet, a knife is just as dangerous as a firearm.

It is called the Tueller Drill and the distance is 21 feet. Within 21 feet, a knife-wielding attacker stands a very good chance of stabbing the defender due to the time it takes the attacker to cover 21 feet vs. the defender unholstering, aiming and firing their weapon.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#156

Post by sixothree »

rogeryu wrote: post #30

This reminds me of Sandra Bland who was put into jail for three days because of improperly signaling a lane change. Police in the US is totally out of control it seems.

The disturbing part of the Sandra Bland incident is that police officers see nothing wrong with the way she was treated. And her death being ruled a suicide was vindication for them.

I know this is a generalization and that I should probably cite sources. But you are welcome to find discussion forums on your own.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#157

Post by PopeOfNope »

tessierashpool wrote: post #139
sudioStudio64 wrote: post #106

I, for one, get tired of the constant refrain of hero worship while these guys say that there number one job is to get home safely. They are afforded terrible powers to intervene in, and disrupt, someone's life. That trade is made under the assumption that they do a dangerous job. A benefit is afforded to them due to the responsibility that they bear. Obviously, they want to have as much power with as little danger a…

Their number one job is not to kill anybody innocent, and they are terrible at it. Source: http://www.amazon.com/Rise-Warrior-Cop-Militarization-Americ...

> Their number one job is not to kill anybody innocent

No, that's what you want their number one job to be. Their number one job is to punch the clock and claim their pension. I relate it to the phrase "to protect and serve." The words "protect" and "serve" are nowhere in the job description for police officer. The motto was devised by the LAPD in the 50s, probably for PR reasons.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#158

Post by powertower »

evan_ wrote: post #143
powertower wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Draw a Fergusson every 3 months? The majority of what you have been told by your media are "narrative" stories that are removed of all actual facts and details (to fit the narrative). Its pure politics. For example, in the Ferguson case, you where told that the police officer (Darren Wilson) saw Michael Brown, and for whatever reason, just murdered him on the spot, by shooting him through the back of his head - all…

Sorry but you're going to need to explain why having watermelon soda is a shoot-on-sight offense, and why it matters that it's soda and not ice tea.

> , and why it matters that it's soda and not ice tea.

It matters that it was a manufactured lie.

The "ice tea and skittles" was also mentioned every time the name Trayvon Martin was mentioned. Every. Single. Time.

So it must have also had a great importance to everything and everyone.

And the point was to show how these stories are manufactured by removing facts, and replacing them with the narrative... A young 12 year old kid just getting some ice tea and skittles on a bright sunny day - murdered by a white racist who had no injuries, was not arrested, was not handcuffed and taken-in, etc (all points proven false).

> Sorry but you're going to need to explain why having watermelon soda is a shoot-on-sight offense

Why would I have to explain it? What you just said is completely made up, and you are the one saying it. Trayvon was shot because he was beating Zimmerman's head into the pavement. They both made mistakes, it escalated. And everything that was reported was spun to the narrative.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#159

Post by [deleted] »

DanBC wrote: post #52
an_ko wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> enough white people regard black people being shot by the police as a positive outcome rather than a negative one Could you elaborate? "Enough" for what?

"Enough" in that you have people on HN saying pretty much that most of the black people who get shot and killed by police deserved it and that black people are stupid violent criminals so it's no wonder they get killed so often, and that if only they were docile and compliant in the face of police harassment they wouldn't get shot so much. It's fucking weird seeing that stuff on HN, and it's scary to think how those…

[deleted]

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#160

Post by angrybits »

darklajid wrote: post #100
ghufran_syed wrote: post #9

I sometimes find ex-military folks analogies between their wartime service and situations in civilian life rather forced, but this analysis is exactly right. I used to ask myself why the Israeli Defence Forces would risk innocent palestinian civilian lives to kill the terrorists who hide among them by using drones or airstrikes instead of the kind of techniques they would no doubt use if the terrorists were surrounde…

I .. disagree. Disclaimer: Not my native language, I might miss nuances and misinterpret things - and I certainly come from a different belief system, a different culture. For me though, this article raised important questions - but those were nearly impossibly hard to read due to the constant 'I served in Iraq' analogies. I flagged the submission for that. I don't believe that Iraq was a 'Good Idea™' and I have zero…

> I have zero respect for someone that was there

Serving isn't for everyone, and I don't expect you to understand it if you haven't. But either way your attitude is as discourteous as it is pretentious, and you have added zero value to the conversation by shooting your mouth off on the subject.

America's fighting forces will continue to carry out their mission, day in and day out, just like they always have. I have a feeling they'll do just fine without the backing of the German nerd contingent.

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