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How Berlin’s Futuristic Airport Became a $6B Embarrassment

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Re: How Berlin’s Futuristic Airport Became a $6B Embarrassment

#91
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, some politician got some "duh, stupid engineers" points out of that sentence. Completely ignoring the fact that the original design also pulled smoke down and was considered to be fine. Since these systems are active and suck the smoke out up or down doesn't matter all that much.

From the third paragraph: "Smoke evacuation canals designed to suck out smoke and replace it with fresh air failed to do either. In an actual fire, the inspectors determined, the main smoke vent might well implode." Assuming the inspectors were correct, the original design, at least as implemented, didn't work. While the "in accordance with the laws of physics" may be overly catty, a bit of searching around suggests…

AFAIK the smoke was pulled in at the ceiling of the floors. And then sent downwards and vented out somewhere on the side instead of on top of the building.

The original design was never tested, because the building as originally designed never existed.

Each addition ordered up by Schwarz required shifting passenger flows through the terminal. That meant rebuilding walls, exits, emergency lights, ventilation systems, windows, elevators, and staircases. At one point, in 2009, outside controllers urged Schwarz and his engineering chief to shut down construction for half a year to give the architects and contractors time to coordinate efforts.

That never happened, so there never was a complete design for the changed building, and the fire system wasn't properly replanned for the new situation. Which lead to issues like the collapsing pipes: They fitted stronger fans, but no-one realized that the pipes can't hold the higher pressure difference.

Re: How Berlin’s Futuristic Airport Became a $6B Embarrassment

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google translate: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%...

I'm surprised that the quality isn't too bad. Sure, the grammar is way off but you can actually understand what they are trying to say.

I find how well that works is directly related to how closely related English is to the language in question. The further you get from its Germanic and Latin roots, the proportionally less sense a rough translation makes.

Some of that is figures of speech, some of it is colloquialisms, some of it is just weird grammar. For example, Japanese tends to omit the subject, which is incredibly confusing when directly translated if you aren't expecting it.

Re: How Berlin’s Futuristic Airport Became a $6B Embarrassment

#93
post #7
post #2

Building an airport always is. Often it takes more money and a few decades to appreciate it. D/FW airport was a nightmare when it was built but it's pretty nice today. Denver's airport had tons of issues as well. Then again this seems on a much higher level of disaster, but should be familiar to anyone building large government software systems.

Denver still has the issue that it's a 20 mile drive from downtown out of some misguided belief that the city was just going to instantly grow out to it.

The road is a high-volume direct route and they are adding a rail line that goes directly to the airport. It's trivial to drive there and wouldn't be much different than if the airport was closer.

Even if Denver doesn't grow to the airport, I don't see the downside of having an airport a few miles out of town.

Re: How Berlin’s Futuristic Airport Became a $6B Embarrassment

#94
post #56

This is what happens with many software projects following crazy customers and waterfall approaches. Clearly we never speak about 6 billion, but hey, shit happens...

Can you develop a big infrastructure project using agile methodologies?

Actually, Boston's infamous Big Dig project used so called "fast track construction," wherein construction on earlier segments was started before the design of later segments was finished[1]. This required frequent modifications of already-constructed segments, and it's unclear how beneficial this methodology was in the end.

[1] http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10629&page=16

Re: How Berlin’s Futuristic Airport Became a $6B Embarrassment

#95

I am a german living in Berlin - and let me tell you, I feel deeply ashamed. Not because I am german, but because I have the impression that a lot of people involved, especially our once-so-admired former mayor Klaus Wowereit, are obsessed with money, and got caught in a swamp of corruption and were misleading the public. A year ago or so, it turned out that the folks responsible for all the mess (none of the board o…

> I was surprised to see that we were using the actual airstrip of BER. The flight was supposed to go to SXF (Berlin Schönefeld), but instead we landed on the new airstrip, driving by the not-yet-finished new airport. Can anyone tell me why? They repurposed the south airstrip of SXF as the north airstrip of BER. As the north airstrip of SXF was dismantled for a highway this is the only remaining airstrip at SXF. For…

I wasn't aware of that - but did they increase the number of planes starting and landing on SXF? It wasn't until a couple of months ago since they started taxi'ing around the building, or am I wrong?

Re: How Berlin’s Futuristic Airport Became a $6B Embarrassment

#96

I realize that higher standards of fire and other safety measures make these systems more complicated, but you would think that with all the technology we have today for planning, engineering, communication, documentation, modeling and simulation - that these types of fiascos would become rarer and rarer. I wonder if anyone has looked at large scale projects like these over the last 100 years and determined what impl…

Construction is a much more fragmented and there is no standardised software or mature data interchange format. Unlike say, aerospace, where the client is the organisation that mostly designs and builds the thing and is a gorilla that can force all the subcontractors to use CATIA v4 or whatever. I've worked on mega construction projects and just getting all the stakeholders to agree on where the building is located in the coordinate space of the CAD system is a major pain...

Re: How Berlin’s Futuristic Airport Became a $6B Embarrassment

#97
post #2

Building an airport always is. Often it takes more money and a few decades to appreciate it. D/FW airport was a nightmare when it was built but it's pretty nice today. Denver's airport had tons of issues as well. Then again this seems on a much higher level of disaster, but should be familiar to anyone building large government software systems.

Not a fan of DFW's terminal setup and roads. All that space and that tangle of off-ramps and on-ramps and bridges is the best they could do? Satellite shot: https://goo.gl/peXr25

Hmm, this multi-terminal, spread-out, "park right by the gate" design reminded me of Kansas City International airport. Turns out this was a trend in airport design in the early 1970s - KCI opened in 1972 and DFW in 1973. TWA, among others, pushed this design.

Re: How Berlin’s Futuristic Airport Became a $6B Embarrassment

#98
post #8

But is it only BER? As mentioned int the article - what about Stuttgart 21 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuttgart_21 ) etc.? It is possible that these sites exist as new financial "loopholes", transferring tax-money from the government to private contractors without much oversight.

The complexity of that project is extremely high. My cousin is a civil engineer in Stuttgart, and he showed me a cross-sectional diagram of the affected area and the number of considerations seemed intractably high to me. But more generally, these kinds of megaprojects go over budget in nearly every part of the world -- especially when tunneling is involved. Here in the United States, two examples are Boston's "Big D…

It's a bit rarer for an airport to fail a fire inspection 4 weeks before planned opening and then sit empty for years and billions in fixes.

Re: How Berlin’s Futuristic Airport Became a $6B Embarrassment

#99
I don't understand why the state funds airports. If people want airports, there is a demand, and that demand is either big enough to fund an airport and is satisfied, or it isn't because people don't want to spend that kind of money. Seems to me like something the state shouldn't be involved in.

Re: How Berlin’s Futuristic Airport Became a $6B Embarrassment

#100
post #54

As somebody from Berlin, I'm always happy when my hometown is on HN! Makes me feel proud.

Yep, the proud feeling about Berlin's grandiose track record when it comes to corruption and incompetence in major construction projects.

Aside from the airport, I don't think Berlin is worse than any other major city. There are huge construction debacles for various reasons everywhere.
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