The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town • Hacker News Board

Re: The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town

#231

Post by jessaustin » Tue, Jul 21, 2015, 10:05 PM UTC

riskable wrote: post #187

Apocryphon wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could they be converted into cheap housing?

This is not usually possible because of the cost to run plumbing. You have to gut the entire facility in order to put kitchens and bathrooms in every apartment and it just isn't (usually) cost effective.

These places have slab floors, and jackhammering sucks, but that isn't the end of the discussion. They typically have really high ceilings, so false floors aren't impossible. Clever architecting can group plumbing-required rooms together. Also, if we're talking about low-income, alternative housing for singles and couples, is a janitor-included shared bathroom down the hall even a problem? Many of the old hotels that are used for this purpose also have this.

Re: The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town

#232

Post by danans » Tue, Jul 21, 2015, 10:07 PM UTC

LordKano wrote: post #86

Tiktaalik wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure anyone really loves suburbia, but once in place, car oriented development has a way of being self sustaining. This "Cycle of automobile dependency" image shows it pretty well. http://imgur.com/Y9vxbNN Only recently, with huge effort and many setbacks, are we starting to see cities break out of car oriented development and this endless suburban sprawl creating loop. I'm a bit concerned that the advent of…

I'm not sure anyone really loves suburbia I would guess that has a lot to do with how one defines the term. I love living outside of the city. I wouldn't have it any other way. When I'm ready to retire, I plan to move even further away from the city. I grew up in the suburbs. I am raising my children in the suburbs. I detest going into the city. The traffic, the parking, the population density and the crammed nature…

Honest question. Why should low income residents remain in inner cities? If they can afford it, why should they be discouraged from moving to suburbs if suburbs suit them, the same way suburbs suit you?

Re: The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town

#233

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Jul 21, 2015, 10:11 PM UTC

Tiktaalik wrote: post #89

bduerst wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this one of the goals of self-driving cars? Having vehicles that don't require human operation means that cars can spend less time in parking lots as depreciating assets and more time filling transportation demand. By reducing inefficiencies, it should free up traffic congestion and make it easier to commute to these office parks, right?

Even supposing a high amount of self driving car sharing rather than ownership, you still run into the issue that cars fundamentally require a lot of space both in roads and parking and the sprawl creating results of accommodating this fact. Self driving cars are an example of doing the wrong thing (automobile oriented development) better. The right thing is developing cities around people, not cars. This means creat…

> Self driving cars are an example of doing the wrong thing (automobile oriented development) better. The right thing is developing cities around people, not cars. This means creating walkable spaces with cycling and public transit prioritized above automobiles.

Shared automated cars are public transit.

Re: The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town

#234

Post by djrogers » Tue, Jul 21, 2015, 10:15 PM UTC

spiritplumber wrote: post #225

ChuckMcM wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately for some zoning prevents you from living in those spaces. A friend of mine tried to get a zone variance to turn an office building into essentially a multifamily dwelling and the city turned him down flat. They suggested he could buy the property, tear down the building, get it rezoned, and then build dwellings there. But not go in and convert a perfectly usable space into a livable space. Sigh.

Similar issue here. What I wanted to do was take a warehouse (zoned light industrial), essentially cut it in half, and live next to my workshop. Explaining that this is common in my home country, it'd take at least one car off the road during commute hours (mine), etc. was in vain.

Lots of people do that type of thing here too, but un-permitted. If you wanted to be really particular, you could probably get a permit for the work itself (plumbing, kitchen, etc) as long as it wasn't specified as residential.

This is what we've come to though - the government has taken away our rights and sell them back to us with permits.

Re: The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town

#235

Post by drpgq » Tue, Jul 21, 2015, 10:18 PM UTC

cylinder wrote: post #211

rayiner wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your question highlights one thing I've always found bizarre about the tech industry. In most professional industries, having an office in the suburbs is a mark of being second-rate. Can you imagine Goldman or McKinsey trading their midtown Manhattan digs for an office park in New Jersey?

Goldman does have an office in Jersey City, they put "backoffice" functions there and have a water taxi between the two. Anyhow, context is key. I think if I lived on the west coast I'd like an office campus nestled amongst nature with lots of open space between buildings. SF is not a great "big city" compared to NY. In NY I want to be in the urban core. People want the best of wherever they are.

Here's a NYT article about the water taxis.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/20/nyregion/public-may-use-ne...

Re: The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town

#236

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Jul 21, 2015, 10:21 PM UTC

bluthru wrote: post #152

astrocyte wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually it isn't (several studies have highlighted this). The reason why a lot of cities aren't better for the environment is that the insane cost force many people out to the cities edge who then have to commute in... negating a good deal of the concentration benefits. Further, cities can wreak havoc on health due to the concentration of pollution, noise, etc ... Increase mental health issues due to stress/etc. Hum…

Your data must be from the industrial revolution. We have decades of data from dense European cities that indicate better health and quality of life. Also just look at the health of rural people versus urban people in the US--the obesity crisis ain't happening in cities. >The reason why a lot of cities aren't better for the environment is that the insane cost force many people out to the cities edge who then have to…

> Also just look at the health of rural people versus urban people in the US

The rural/urban comparison (most studies of which include suburbs in the "urban" side) is a very different thing from the suburban/urban comparison.

> --the obesity crisis ain't happening in cities.

Yes, it is -- sure, its higher in rural areas, but the urban rate is quite high, too.

Re: The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town

#237

Post by smrtinsert » Tue, Jul 21, 2015, 10:28 PM UTC

LordKano wrote: post #86

Tiktaalik wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure anyone really loves suburbia, but once in place, car oriented development has a way of being self sustaining. This "Cycle of automobile dependency" image shows it pretty well. http://imgur.com/Y9vxbNN Only recently, with huge effort and many setbacks, are we starting to see cities break out of car oriented development and this endless suburban sprawl creating loop. I'm a bit concerned that the advent of…

I'm not sure anyone really loves suburbia I would guess that has a lot to do with how one defines the term. I love living outside of the city. I wouldn't have it any other way. When I'm ready to retire, I plan to move even further away from the city. I grew up in the suburbs. I am raising my children in the suburbs. I detest going into the city. The traffic, the parking, the population density and the crammed nature…

yeah. lived in a city a long time, but living in a va suburb now is bliss by comparison. trees, peace and quiet. walkable groceries were great, but choice from top grocers within a few minutes by car is even better - wegmans, whole foods, even harris teeters.

not to mention getting anywhere takes like 5-10 minutes.

what do i miss? a great modern restaurant experience, but classic ethnic is great out here - indian, chinese, mexican etc.

factor in better schools for your children for "free" and i can't see a reason to live in a city.

Re: The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town

#238

Post by icelancer » Tue, Jul 21, 2015, 10:32 PM UTC

djrogers wrote: post #234

spiritplumber wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar issue here. What I wanted to do was take a warehouse (zoned light industrial), essentially cut it in half, and live next to my workshop. Explaining that this is common in my home country, it'd take at least one car off the road during commute hours (mine), etc. was in vain.

Lots of people do that type of thing here too, but un-permitted. If you wanted to be really particular, you could probably get a permit for the work itself (plumbing, kitchen, etc) as long as it wasn't specified as residential. This is what we've come to though - the government has taken away our rights and sell them back to us with permits.

>This is what we've come to though - the government has taken away our rights and sell them back to us with permits.

Perfectly stated. Perhaps especially in this case with "zoning" laws. Dealing with a bunch of crap myself in trying to find commercial properties. Unbelievable the number of codes and rules...

Re: The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town

#239

Post by Retric » Tue, Jul 21, 2015, 10:34 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #170

Retric wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sustainable homes are a joke in poor taste. Cities are vastly better for the environment than the same number of people in so called ‘green’ homes in low density areas.

Nothing wrong with low density areas if the homes are sustainable and transportation is electrified.

Sure, you can minimize global harm from pollution etc., but locally even something as simple as a house cat can have large scale impacts. Further, people want large changes like dams to reduce flooding, drainage etc.

Aesthetically, it might seem more natural than asphalt, but lawns are a long way from ‘nature’. Realistically to have anything close to 'nature' assuming zero farming you’re looking at ~1 person per square mile if that.

Re: The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town

#240

Post by rayiner » Tue, Jul 21, 2015, 10:46 PM UTC

smrtinsert wrote: post #237

LordKano wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure anyone really loves suburbia I would guess that has a lot to do with how one defines the term. I love living outside of the city. I wouldn't have it any other way. When I'm ready to retire, I plan to move even further away from the city. I grew up in the suburbs. I am raising my children in the suburbs. I detest going into the city. The traffic, the parking, the population density and the crammed nature…

yeah. lived in a city a long time, but living in a va suburb now is bliss by comparison. trees, peace and quiet. walkable groceries were great, but choice from top grocers within a few minutes by car is even better - wegmans, whole foods, even harris teeters. not to mention getting anywhere takes like 5-10 minutes. what do i miss? a great modern restaurant experience, but classic ethnic is great out here - indian, ch…

In what VA suburb can you get anywhere in a few minutes by car? In most of Fairfax County you have to drive 10-15 minutes just to get to a drug store. The only exception is the satellite cities (Vienna, Reston, etc). And what's the commute look like for you and your spouse?