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Online Cheating Site AshleyMadison Hacked

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Re: Online Cheating Site AshleyMadison Hacked

#341

Post by Zigurd »

tptacek wrote: post #339
Zigurd wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, I'm not one of these big-L Libertarian theorists, but I'm still baffled by "Nobody has a right to private criminality." That's exactly what the 4th is meant to draw a line around: If you can't detect the crime without building a pervasive surveillance state, it probably shouldn't be a crime and we're going to make it hard to detect and prosecute. "Private criminality" is an oxymoron. Making abortion ill…

If you can't detect the crime without building a pervasive surveillance state, it probably shouldn't be a crime and we're going to make it hard to detect and prosecute This makes no sense to me at all. It is, for instance, incredibly difficult to track and prosecute child pornographers.

Child pornographers are a criminal enterprise. They have to do physically significant things like kidnap children and produce pornography, and then sell it and accept payment for it. That's not "private criminality" at all. That's comparable to detecting and prosecuting counterfeiting, or a protection racket, or other forms of human trafficking. Any time you are doing something criminal for money, that takes it far outside the realm of "private criminality." It's racketeering. Organized crime.

Are you referring to the buy-side of CP? Yes, that's hard. But those are also the low-value targets. They would mostly get rolled-up once a producer of CP is caught, no?

Re: Online Cheating Site AshleyMadison Hacked

#342

Post by wl »

pizzeys wrote: post #333
wl wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone signed up for an account and mistakenly used my first initial + last name @ gmail address. Support refused to purge my address from their system unless I paid them, something I refused to do. I guess one of my email addresses is in this dump.

Nice try, but I'm not sure this is going to work :(

Spoken like someone who doesn't have a first initial + last name gmail account.

https://xkcd.com/1279/

I could also talk about how Verizon won't stop contacting me about a wireline account in Maryland, how several banks can't be convinced I've never been their customer, how hard it is to get my email address off an eBay account I didn't create, how much trouble I went through to get my email address off a general contractor listing, how the loyalty program at {Sears, Ulta, GameStop, Kmart} is impossible to get off of, how I've been sent payroll information for an entire company, the countless slide decks marked "company confidential" from companies I've never even heard of, or maybe that one time when I got sent blue prints for a gas turbine power plant in South Africa. And how I've never had any business dealings with any of the aforementioned entities where I gave them the email address in question.

It's a real problem for me that there are tons of companies out there that do nothing to ensure the email address a user types in actually belongs to them. And for those companies that do try, they can't contemplate that their process has failed and that someone would want to get their email address off an account they never created.

Re: Online Cheating Site AshleyMadison Hacked

#343

Post by Zigurd »

tptacek wrote: post #337
Zigurd wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't see a big difference in morality in hacking Hacking Team and hacking a dating site? Hacking Team was literally poisoning computing, and brewing novel, secret poisons. I bet most Europeans are having a chuckle at the structure of American morality in the Ashley Madison case. So much hypocrisy. Huh. Maybe both hacks will result in more realism.

It isn't remotely difficult for me to understand why people don't like HT and Ashley Madison. I don't like either of them myself. However, millions and millions of people like Planned Parenthood even less than they like Hacking Team.

People opposed to abortion have a particularly virulent fervor in their opposition, but we're currently seeing Planned Parenthood see off a smear campaign. People want legal abortion even if they can't admit it. If Planned Parenthood got hacked... then what?

Re: Online Cheating Site AshleyMadison Hacked

#344

Post by josinalvo »

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #310
josinalvo wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Let's discuss how we can keep from inflicting our own personal morals on those who do not share our moral philosophies The interesting question, is, of course, which are private matters and which are matters of injustice that 'society' should intervene to fix. THE WHOLE QUESTION is whether or not cheating is 'a private matter' or 'an injustice that ...'. Just stating that it is 'private' does not seem to be an answe…

I think I was quite clear as to why a marital relationship is a private matter. I think we can agree that in society there are many different moral systems. Now I will use the words "good" and "bad" with the stipulation that these words have no inherent meaning, but instead only have the meaning that we apply to them from within our own personal moral system. You can compare another moral system to your own, and deci…

Thank you for your reply.

No, I am not harmed when two people (Pa and Pb) are married, and Pa cheats on Pb. The reason I'd oppose AM is because it normalizes and helps the harmful behaviour of Pa towards Pb. I am quite sure that there is some marginal contribution of AM to the number of cheatings and broken marriages. I think we can objectively say that AM contributes to needless suffering. Do you agree?

Re: Online Cheating Site AshleyMadison Hacked

#345

Post by ulrikrasmussen »

ysv2 wrote: post #226
ulrikrasmussen wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not expect anyone to have much sympathy with the site nor its users. But still, being publicly defamed on the internet for eternity is far too harsh a punishment for cheating on your spouse. The motivations for cheating can be complicated, and while it certainly destroys many relationships, I believe that some might still be salvaged when the cheater can come clean on his/her own terms. Outing a cheater which yo…

> It is none of my business how other people lead their lives, even if I disagree with their lifestyle, as long as their actions do not harm me or the society as a whole. Willful deceit and endangering your spouse is not a "lifestyle choice", it's wrong in an objective ethical sense. Exposing your spouse to sexually transmitted diseases without their knowledge harms society as a whole. In cases where it's a wife chea…

I admit that "lifestyle" is bad wording which sounds way too apologetic towards cheating. Of course there are victims, but society has still decided not to make cheating a punishable crime, nonetheless. My point is that it is not the duty of me to expose my fellow citizen, it is a private matter between that person and his/her spouse.

Re: Online Cheating Site AshleyMadison Hacked

#346

Post by ossreality »

crikli wrote: post #148
spacemanmatt wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or an open relationship. There are many options people may choose.

Tobias: You know, Lindsay, as a therapist, I have advised a number of couples to explore an open relationship where the couple remains emotionally committed, but free to explore extra-marital encounters. Lindsay: Well, did it work for those people? Tobias: No, it never does. I mean, these people somehow delude themselves into thinking it might, but ... But it might work for us.

For already failing marriages... duh.

Re: Online Cheating Site AshleyMadison Hacked

#347

Post by jaawn »

reinhardt wrote: post #311
jaawn wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its intent is to do something which harms. I don't think the infinitesimal collection of people who want their partners to "cheat" on them justify the flexibility you're implying. Basically, what you are saying, is that some people are not harmed by being cheated on, and therefore it isn't fair for us to judge the actions of the sites users, because maybe all or most of them are in a situation where there is no harm.…

Going somewhat off on a tangent here but I'm wondering, what is the factual, tangible harm of cheating that you so take for granted? STDs and unwanted pregnancies, I'll give you that but let's assume that everyone's a responsible adult and wears protection. What else? Trust? I guess promising to (not) do `X` and not keeping your word makes you untrustworthy but what is the literal harm on someone other than the self-…

It is, quite simply, that they feel intense negative emotions and betrayal. It does not really need any more explanation than that. You can tell a distraught "victim" of cheating that they weren't technically harmed, but I don't think that would make many of them feel better.

Basically, it is irrelevant if they "should" or "shouldn't" be harmed, most of them will feel harm once the affair inevitably comes to light. I don't really agree with it, but even if it is irrational to feel harmed over an affair, and even if it is based on self-referential beliefs, people still feel the feelings, and those feelings hurt.

If the cheater knew those feelings would probably happen, and they already promised they would not engage in the behavior, and then they do it anyway...in secret...that is obviously wrong by most people's standards. There are a lot of important "if"s in there. Notice that I did not say that having multiple partners is harmful, or that leaving a partner is wrong, or that it is "always wrong" for someone in a relationship to go off with someone else for awhile. I did not say any of that.

However, when the relationship is a committed relationship, in the most common, Western, traditional sense, it is wrong to have an affair, especially a secret one. If you disagree with that kind of relationship and commitment, that is totally fine, but don't promise that to someone, and if you change your mind be up front about it.

Re: Online Cheating Site AshleyMadison Hacked

#348

Post by superuser2 »

dreamfactory2 wrote: post #281
mikegioia wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is insane, you're saying Ashley Madison should be prosecuted for having their data hacked? Do you have any idea what that means for the rest of the world's websites? And to even make a claim that this is somehow worse than the massively private information the Feds lost is laughable. Do you know what data AM had on its users? Do you think it's even remotely close to the data the Feds had on every single public s…

What's wrong with the idea of having limits on data collection and regulations around their storage? You can't prosecute someone for being the victim of hackers but you can (and should) for not applying reasonable efforts in safeguarding data or storing more than they should.

There is always someone on HN who thinks whatever data you're collecting is too much, and plenty of hacks were the result of pretty sophisticated 0days in underlying systems despite reasonable precautions being taken in administration processes. There is already negligence on the books.

Re: Online Cheating Site AshleyMadison Hacked

#349

Post by flippinburgers »

Cheating is not cool, but acting like all of the users of that site "deserve it" is such a horrendous broad stroke. It just reeks of White Knight BS. Every last person on earth struggles with balancing their own inner desires against the expectations of the society around them. Some are better at this than others. I'm glad some of you are such perfect little angels that you feel that wrecking other peoples live is ok. I've been cheated on before. It was fucking god awful but I wouldn't expect that the other person's life be destroyed as a result. Relationships are WAY more complex than some holier-than-thou promise that people make to one another.

Re: Online Cheating Site AshleyMadison Hacked

#350

Post by jaawn »

vectorjohn wrote: post #308
jaawn wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its intent is to do something which harms. I don't think the infinitesimal collection of people who want their partners to "cheat" on them justify the flexibility you're implying. Basically, what you are saying, is that some people are not harmed by being cheated on, and therefore it isn't fair for us to judge the actions of the sites users, because maybe all or most of them are in a situation where there is no harm.…

First, you're putting words in my mouth. All I did was point out that you're just spouting opinions as given facts. Secondly, still, you continue to make value judgments based on your own personal ethics and assume they're universal truths. Whether there is harm (as you say) truly is debatable. Ending a marriage is breaking your contract, doing something your spouse doesn't like is "harmful". Which ones are ok? Maybe…

As I've been trying to explain, the issue is with the secrecy and broken promise/contract because it puts one person's interests ahead of the other. If you disagree with that kind of relationship, that is fine...don't agree to enter into one. If you are in one and you find it is no longer what you want, that is fine too...tell your partner and proceed how you wish.

I am not applying any overly austere morals here. I think you would be hard-pressed to successfully argue that an affair in the traditional sense is not an immoral act. If you promise to be "faithful" to someone, and you break that promise and try to hide it, it is immoral based on most people's morals and understanding.

Sure, you might disagree with popular morals, that's fine. However, a relationship involves two people, and both should be valued equally. If one person thinks it is fine to break their promise and cheat in secret, so they do it despite knowing how the other person feels...they are putting themselves first. They are not treating both they and their partner as equals. That is the issue. It has nothing to do with some sort of ideological anti-affair "beliefs." It is simple respect.

I guess it is even technically "fine" to think you deserve more liberty than others, or that you think others' feelings don't matter as much as your desires (I'm not saying you do, I'm speaking generally). If that is the case, just own up to it and people can choose how to react accordingly. If you find partners that align with your views, great, everyone is on the same page, but if not, people deserve the truth. Everything else is up in the air, but they deserve to know. Keeping it from them is like robbing them of the choice to deal with it or leave.

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