Online Cheating Site AshleyMadison Hacked • Hacker News Board

Re: Online Cheating Site AshleyMadison Hacked

#221

Post by imglorp » Mon, Jul 20, 2015, 4:40 PM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #183

jdalgetty wrote: post #141

It get's me that so many people are basically saying it serves these people right for using the service. I don't think that it matters that this is a "cheating" site, your privacy should still be guarded and it's not fair that all these people are being exposed. Secondly, I'd wager that many of the users sign up to use Ashley Madison for the thrill of the idea and probably aren't actually cheaters themselves or hooki…

I agree with the sentiment that the nature of the site doesn't condone the action. I note that by its nature, it is a very attractive target for thieves as that data could be the basis for extortion. It also might be used in political campaigns or against other public figures. But at the end of the day, it is another example of how organized crime has moved into the "net" and set up shop. Which combined with nation s…

You can now view nation states, organized crime, and single actors as approximately all equivalent in capability, motivation, and disregard for any laws. So the distinction is not important.

Any of those actors can, will, and have used such data to meet their goals.

Re: Online Cheating Site AshleyMadison Hacked

#222

Post by aetherson » Mon, Jul 20, 2015, 4:45 PM UTC

lectrick wrote: post #218

aetherson wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that outing these people will cause tremendous suffering. I'm not advocating for it. And I didn't make any blanket "everyone who does this is bad" statements -- in fact, I specifically disclaimed the opposite.

And I'm not saying that these people didn't already set all the dominos up to fall themselves. I just wanted to make the point that if the dominos falling is painful, keeping them up in defiance of truth and gravity is not. > I didn't make any blanket "everyone who does this is bad" statements Yet you said that site's existence was a "net negative" for happiness in the world, which (unless I'm not being logical) impl…

I'm actually having difficulty forming a response that's not just restating what I think because the terms we both used are exactly the ones that are technically necessary to distinguish the concepts.

I said "on net, the site adds misery," while saying that any given user who uses the site may be completely innocent. You somehow interpreted that as saying that every single user who uses the site is guilty. So. No.

If I say that every human is 50kg, that's obviously wrong. If I say that the average human weight is 50kg, that's... at least within shouting distance of being right.

This was a site that was clearly, intentionally, gleefully even trying to bring in users who were interested in having secret, illicit extramarital affairs. While some of its users may well have been in open marriages or whatever and been doing nothing wrong, clearly vast numbers of them were using the site without the knowledge of and implicitly against the wishes of their spouses. On net, it is clear to me that the site was adding unhappiness to the world.

Re: Online Cheating Site AshleyMadison Hacked

#223

Post by bmelton » Mon, Jul 20, 2015, 4:49 PM UTC

aetherson wrote: post #188

unchocked wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how enabling affairs contributes to the net misery of the world. A civilized society ought to move away from your sort of moralizing judgement about relations between consenting adults, or those who facilitate them. Adults are free to fuck: they are happier for doing it.

Whatever you think that a civilized society "ought" to move away from, then fact of the matter is that the rest of society doesn't agree with you. And, in fact, married people are (typically) not "free to fuck," and when they do fuck extramaritally, they are (typically) not happier for doing it, and their spouses are (even more typically) not happier for them doing it. This is a descriptive statement, not a prescript…

"the rest of society doesn't agree with you"

And that is a very poor benchmark for establishing one's own morals. Let's not forget that until very recently, "the rest of society" didn't agree that homosexuals should be allowed to marry.

In the not too distant past, the "rest of society" didn't agree that women should be allowed to vote, that interracial couples should be allowed to marry, and that blacks weren't considered whole people.

In determining the validity of one's vitriol towards another people, there are far better metrics for determining the extent than whether or not the "rest of society" agrees with me. I, personally, am not comfortable with our society's complete ban on polygamy. Even though "the rest of society" seems perfectly fine to impose their morality upon the polygamists, I am uncomfortable joining in.

Re: Online Cheating Site AshleyMadison Hacked

#224

Post by zecho » Mon, Jul 20, 2015, 4:50 PM UTC

NullCharacter wrote: post #199

rememberlenny wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's making a joke about the NSA

I know that's what he's trying to do but the comparison isn't really accurate so his sardonic attempt at commentary falls on its face a bit.

I think he stuck the landing pretty well, but I also don't go into a blind rage whenever I think about government spying. :shrug:

Re: Online Cheating Site AshleyMadison Hacked

#225

Post by bmj » Mon, Jul 20, 2015, 4:56 PM UTC

netcan wrote: post #194

aetherson wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of people who use the site may be "innocent" (because they didn't actually do anything, or because they're in an open marriage or whatever). And even people who are to one degree or other "guilty" are not as a class to be declared guilty and given all the same punishment. That said, while I can't necessarily judge any given user of the site, I'm pretty confident that the people running the site are contributing…

Liberalism is an idea that has a lot of weight on this site. For some, it's libertarian kind of liberalism where people should be left to make their won economic decisions. For others its the social liberalism kind where people should be allowed to decide for themselves what is a valid marriage, or what drugs they will or won't put in their bodies. Most flavors of liberalism have at their heart the idea that "The Sta…

I think classical Liberalism and Conservatism have little to do with the political lines drawn in the United States (and other nations). Republicans and Democrats are both, at heart, classical Liberals--the difference is how that is applied.

Most flavors of liberalism have at their heart the idea that "The State" is neither competent nor qualified to intervene in everything or make all decisions on behalf of its citizens.

For Republicans, that means the State should stay out of the economy. For Democrats (and some flavors of Libertarians), that means the State should stay out of people's personal lives, but it can very much get its fingers in the economy, and provide a safety net when citizens make poor choices.

The State is usually the belligerent

I agree, but I would perhaps say it a different way: the State is always looking to shore up its power. To do this, citizens must be coerced, sometimes through violence.

Re: Online Cheating Site AshleyMadison Hacked

#226

Post by ysv2 » Mon, Jul 20, 2015, 4:56 PM UTC

ulrikrasmussen wrote: post #106

mdip wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My only concern is for those who's credit card information was used illegally. If I were an employer, I'd be concerned about hiring someone who joined this site. Most jobs put people in a position where they could "get away" with theft or other illegal activities that could deeply harm the company and I can see employers being very concerned about hiring someone associated with the site. Those folks just had their li…

I do not expect anyone to have much sympathy with the site nor its users. But still, being publicly defamed on the internet for eternity is far too harsh a punishment for cheating on your spouse. The motivations for cheating can be complicated, and while it certainly destroys many relationships, I believe that some might still be salvaged when the cheater can come clean on his/her own terms. Outing a cheater which yo…

> It is none of my business how other people lead their lives, even if I disagree with their lifestyle, as long as their actions do not harm me or the society as a whole.

Willful deceit and endangering your spouse is not a "lifestyle choice", it's wrong in an objective ethical sense.

Exposing your spouse to sexually transmitted diseases without their knowledge harms society as a whole. In cases where it's a wife cheating on a husband, forcing men to pay to raise children who are not their own harms society as a whole.

I'm not in favor of this kind of vigilantism either, by the way. But I think the relativism you express above, implying that cheating is a personal decision without a victim, is desperately in need of a reality check.

Re: Online Cheating Site AshleyMadison Hacked

#227

Post by vtlynch » Mon, Jul 20, 2015, 4:57 PM UTC

jdalgetty wrote: post #141

It get's me that so many people are basically saying it serves these people right for using the service. I don't think that it matters that this is a "cheating" site, your privacy should still be guarded and it's not fair that all these people are being exposed. Secondly, I'd wager that many of the users sign up to use Ashley Madison for the thrill of the idea and probably aren't actually cheaters themselves or hooki…

When signing up for Ashley Madison, you can indicate you are only interested in a "Cyber Affair"

Re: Online Cheating Site AshleyMadison Hacked

#228

Post by unprepare » Mon, Jul 20, 2015, 5:02 PM UTC

anotherangrydev wrote: post #158

jessriedel wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All parties involved can be at fault. And lots of people will think that privacy, while very important, is not quite at the same level as marital fidelity. It's like hearing that a vicious murderous mob boss had his leg shot off. Yes, the person who took his leg ought to be sent to jail, but we might not have much sympathy for the mob boss since his terrible actions led directly to those consequences.

Typical. Free speech! (Until I hear something I don't like!) Equal rights! (Except for people that are not like me!)

Typical.

Free Speech! (has nothing to do with government censorship or banning of speech of any kind)

Equal rights! (has nothing to do with people being granted rights equally by the government, or those rights being applied unevenly)

Is someone here promoting censorship or banning of a type of speech?

Is someone of Class B being persecuted for a crime Class A would not be persecuted for?

If the answer to both questions is no, then we are not discussing free speech or equal rights.

Having a lack of sympathy for someone who committed a crime (in this case a contract violation) is neither anti-free speech nor anti-equal rights.

Do you think it would be better for us to feel more empathy for contract breakers than for those whose marriages have been adversely affected?

Re: Online Cheating Site AshleyMadison Hacked

#229

Post by Lawtonfogle » Mon, Jul 20, 2015, 5:03 PM UTC

jdalgetty wrote: post #141

It get's me that so many people are basically saying it serves these people right for using the service. I don't think that it matters that this is a "cheating" site, your privacy should still be guarded and it's not fair that all these people are being exposed. Secondly, I'd wager that many of the users sign up to use Ashley Madison for the thrill of the idea and probably aren't actually cheaters themselves or hooki…

>I don't think that it matters that this is a "cheating" site, your privacy should still be guarded and it's not fair that all these people are being exposed.

What about those Tor sites that were recently busted. Yes, the content was far worse, but if we argue that usage of a site can be bad enough to warrant a loss in deserving your privacy protected, the difference between the two becomes only a difference in determining what is 'bad enough' and the argument you presented, that it doesn't matter since privacy should be protected anyways, no longer applies (as the people who are arguing it 'serves them right' are disagreeing with you only in terms that the content of this site is bad enough to warrant the same loss of any rights to site usage privacy).

Please note I am not saying the content of the two sites are equal. I am only saying that the wrongness/harmfulness of the content (which is clearly different) isn't taken into account by the point presented here.

Re: Online Cheating Site AshleyMadison Hacked

#230

Post by genericuser » Mon, Jul 20, 2015, 5:05 PM UTC

amyjess wrote: post #219

netcan wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adding to that, we need to be especially wary of righteous belligerence targeting sexual immorality. We have an ancient and rarely broken tradition of ruining people by accusing them of sexual misbehavior. Infidelity, promiscuity, homosexuality. OScar Wilde & Alan Turing come to mind, from an endless list.

As an LGBT person (both L and T), please don't compare me to cheaters. We're nothing alike, and I find it deeply insulting when people compare cheating with sexual orientation.

The similarity would extend so far as the negative views society has for people in any of those groups. In all cases members of society currently hold or have held in the past a view that these behaviors even when not having a negative effect on any individual are something which 'erode the moral fabric of society'. It is not a similarity in the groups themselves, but in how they are regarded or have been regarded by others. Forcing ones morals upon others in instances where there is no harm to anyone(while arguable in many cases of cheating, is certainly true in some cases), would be the common thread.

For everyone who identifies as some sort of Poly or other group it is probably painful to have members of other groups, which are unfortunately still discriminated against, view their differences from the accepted moral norm in a negative light like this. People in general want to be accepted for who they are, and ideally judged by a moral code similar to the one they themselves hold.

At least that is my view on the situation. I realize cheating is often not a mutual agreement between all parties, and in those cases a person is being harmed and there is reason for society to view it negatively, however that is not always the situation, and in these cases I think other groups who have been discriminated against recognizing the similarity would be valuable to humanity in general.