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Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

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Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#141

Post by babygoat »

istvan__ wrote: post #97
partiallypro wrote: post #74

I'm going to disagree. I've been in IRC, Forums, Newsgroups, lurked 4Chan, Reddit, and Slashdot for years. It has actually been evolving to a point, especially among the younger crowd to get bent out of shape about essentially nothing. Maybe that is because more of our lives are online than before, but if you were to go through Twitter and Tumblr and just browse around it is a huge mess of people constantly being off…

This is exactly right. Reasoning ends when the feelings start. I am not even sure if I understand -btw. usually attributed to religious people- the concept of getting offended. If somebody says something you don't like and you don't want to hear just walk away, close the tab, delete the email.

What is the point of interacting with other people if you don't feel anything?

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#142

Post by kzhahou »

DanBC wrote: post #24
itg wrote: post #13

From what i've seen on reddit, twitter, and sometimes even on hn, some are quick to label people whose opinion differs from theirs as trolls. It doesn't matter if it is a polite or well-though out comment, they are quick to shout the word harassment or whatever -ist allows them to hold some moral high ground.

Pao had thousands of people calling her a ching-chong cunt. Why do you think your comment is relevant to this thread?

I never actually saw a post saying "ching-chong cunt". Can you point to one? I searched for [ching chong cunt reddit] and didn't find anything either.

I did see lots of posts saying things like "Ellen Pao is LITERALLY Hitler", but not any overtly racist ones that I can recall.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#143

Post by pdeuchler »

fixermark wrote: post #123
msandford wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should we repeal the first amendment because people sometimes used racial or ethnic slurs? Or they deny the moon landing? Or say things that your preferred political party happens to disagree with? Or maybe only things that YOU disagree with?

Nobody is recommending a repeal of the First Amendment. At best, the conversation is about whether orgs like Reddit have any obligation (moral, business, or otherwise) to allow people screaming racial or ethnic slurs to stand on (metaphorically speaking) their property and use their megaphones. Usenet still exists, and nobody is stopping people from using it. It's just not where trolls go to be heard anymore, because…

"Nobody wants to take away your right to free speech, we're just trying to create social norms that discourage, or hinder, the freedom to express views we don't like. Ignore the fact that social norms inevitably become codified in law."

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#144

Post by tyrust »

lcswi wrote: post #113
fixermark wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does "Just don't feed the trolls" continue to work in a world where trolls know that SWATting someone is as easy as picking up a phone, and doxxing someone can have significant long-term consequences?

Have there been instances where this happened out of the blue? If so, I would appreciate some more information on those incedents.

A recent example of SWATting - https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140828/13313928352/count...

It does happen.

That said, I don't know if I agree with the comment you have replied to.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#145

Post by fixermark »

pc86 wrote: post #4
wxs wrote: post #2

I just posted this in the earlier submission[1], but I'll put it here too: I really worry that if we don't find a way to fix the abuse problem, pseudonymity online will be looked back on by future generations as our time's Klan hood. Abuse stories like these make me embarrassed to support any form of privacy online. Platforms need to take a stand and find a way reduce hate and abuse, or public opinion (and my own) wi…

> pseudonymity online will be looked back on by future generations as our time's Klan hood This may be one of the most hyperbolic things I've read on HN in a very long time.

I'm not so sure. Looking at the history of the Internet, the communications technology seems to have grown from a system of necessary pseudonymity to increasinglhy-non-pseudonymous interactions (social networks with real names, merchant systems with credit cards, and increasingly initiatives to use one authoritative account system to authenticate with multiple services).

A social shift to consider people who don't use their real names online as "creepy" or "with something to hide" may not be as impossible as you want it to be.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#146

Post by pc86 »

wxs wrote: post #35
itg wrote: post #13

From what i've seen on reddit, twitter, and sometimes even on hn, some are quick to label people whose opinion differs from theirs as trolls. It doesn't matter if it is a polite or well-though out comment, they are quick to shout the word harassment or whatever -ist allows them to hold some moral high ground.

Did you see the front page of Reddit when they were blowing up at Pao over the fat people abuse subreddit? I think it's disingenuous to claim that this is just polite disagreement: http://cdn0.dailydot.com/uploaded/images/original/2015/6/10/...

It's just as disingenuous to post a screenshot of submissions from /r/PaoMustResign, /r/IAmA_troll_AmA, and /r/EllenPao_IsA_C* and claim that they're representative of the attitude of Reddit as a whole.

I'd be much more interested in seeing what the front page of /r/all was for that same period of time.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#147

Post by [deleted] »

fixermark wrote: post #123
msandford wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should we repeal the first amendment because people sometimes used racial or ethnic slurs? Or they deny the moon landing? Or say things that your preferred political party happens to disagree with? Or maybe only things that YOU disagree with?

Nobody is recommending a repeal of the First Amendment. At best, the conversation is about whether orgs like Reddit have any obligation (moral, business, or otherwise) to allow people screaming racial or ethnic slurs to stand on (metaphorically speaking) their property and use their megaphones. Usenet still exists, and nobody is stopping people from using it. It's just not where trolls go to be heard anymore, because…

[deleted]

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#148

Post by exstudent2 »

fixermark wrote: post #123
msandford wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should we repeal the first amendment because people sometimes used racial or ethnic slurs? Or they deny the moon landing? Or say things that your preferred political party happens to disagree with? Or maybe only things that YOU disagree with?

Nobody is recommending a repeal of the First Amendment. At best, the conversation is about whether orgs like Reddit have any obligation (moral, business, or otherwise) to allow people screaming racial or ethnic slurs to stand on (metaphorically speaking) their property and use their megaphones. Usenet still exists, and nobody is stopping people from using it. It's just not where trolls go to be heard anymore, because…

When the value of that property is determined entierly by the size and engagement of the community using it (a community that gathered largely around the ethos of Free Speech), it's not necessarily a smart thing to attack them.

It's quite trendy now to push the meaning of censorship all the way back to a legal definition around the first amendment and say things like private companies can't censor people. That's simply not true. Removing information is censorship.

Reddit was born on the spirit of freedom of speech and repealing it, while fully with their rights, will be the death of Reddit.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#149

Post by knd775 »

angersock wrote: post #114
mahouse wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They were hit back by karma. Reddit has never hesitated to take advantage of the word "democracy" to refer to how their site works. It's a word that sounds very well. So there they have it: that screenshot is what democracy looks like.

Yep. Forum users and gamers are the worst sort of people.

Is there a "/s" missing there?

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#150

Post by boomshucka »

songshu wrote: post #29

Misquoting Bart Simpson "If you never experience the abuse, you'll never get desensitized to it", and with that in mind, and talking here only about written abuse, these are my favorite three outcomes for, let's say, my daughter: 1) No one abuses her online 2) People abuse her, she dismisses it as noise 3) People abuse her, and she reacts and attempts to control it I think we should be aiming for number 2.

Agreed, you are smart. Many people won't agree, but if you can even just have your own daughter think that way, you've probably done all that really matters.
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