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Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

nytimes.com

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Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#301

Post by coldtea »

makeitsuckless wrote: post #199
yc1010 wrote: post #3

Fairplay to them, the whole point of the EU project was to make us all "Europeans" and to prevent constant disastrous fighting between states and people of the continent. Sometime in the last 10 years many people and the media in the "core" countries got all smug and uppity towards those lazy "peripherals" and so on forgetting exactly why the project was started, overnight we stopped being "Europeans" and became "und…

> the whole point of the EU project was to make us all "Europeans" Constantly repeating the lie doesn't suddenly make it true. Also, trying to force people who prefer to remain sovereign and independent (and maybe most of all: democratic) is not a good recipe for a future without "disastrous fighting between states and people". Quite the opposite.

>the whole point of the EU project was to make us all "Europeans"

Or rather that might have been the project of those in power designing the E.U., but it was never a stated goal or a desire of the people of the E.U. nations.

It was mostly bureacrats and technocrats making the decisions for this -- and it has had very undemocratic infrastructure and rules in place from the start because of that.

The prospect of a united Europe (which sounds rather nice when put this way, let's rephrase it, the prospect of an involuntary integration to a larger empire-like unit) was rejected several times by member nations in EU referendums (for the EU-constitution and such).

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#302

Post by twobits »

woodpanel wrote: post #253
aikah wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does the term "sovereign nation" mean anything to you? Does the term European Union mean anything to you? Does the term common currency mean anything to you? If Greece fails, Do you really think Germans won't suffer any consequences?

Yes, the Germans won't suffer any consequences. The markets did not crashed yet, and they most probably won't because no sane private entity in the world was lending Greece any money. Except EU-minus-1's tax payers representatives. But then again, I was talking about sane entities...

But they were lending greece. And getting nice profit. When TSHTF, politicians made that private debt public.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#303

Post by scrollaway »

peterfirefly wrote: post #299
scrollaway wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has very different implications. In english speaking countries, "terrorism" / "terrorists" have become a placeholder for "really really bad guys who can't be reasoned with who want to steal our freedom and kill our children", thanks to US propaganda. The word "terrorism" in its more original form is ruling by fear and it can mean many things, such as being given power because the population is afraid of what you m…

I can assure you that the word terrorism in English hasn't changed its meaning substantially in the last 20 years or due to US propaganda. It had the same meaning 30+ years ago when I started learning the language. I know bloody well what the original meaning of "terror" was (you translate lots of sentences about terror and tyrants when you start studying Latin). The shift in meaning in English from the Latin meaning…

I have little interest in greek politics other than passive, I just speak the language. I think you might be taking my comment more aggressively than it is.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#304

Post by dragandj »

tomp wrote: post #17
imaginenore wrote: post #5

I really hope EU doesn't propose any more bailouts / help to them until they sober up and go through the withdrawal and all the grief stages.

Greece doesn't actually need any more bailouts (at least, it didn't until last week). They run a primary budget surplus, so all they need from the EU & IMF is some kind of debt restructuring so they can stop all debt payments for a few years while they pass the necessary reforms and their economy recovers. They also need a guarantee that the banks are safe by the ECB to restore confidence, but that doesn't cost any m…

That does not cost Greeks any money, but it does cost ECB to throw good money after bad.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#305

Post by twobits »

tptacek wrote: post #236
calibraxis wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Debt is fundamentally about morality. Otherwise everyone would accord Greece the agency to shrug and ignore it, like politicians break promises to consituents, or big companies ignore their debts to smaller ones. Instead, children worldwide are condemned to misery ("austerity"), because of moral statements like "you have to pay your debts". Though they did nothing to deserve it. As for Greece's finances, that's exact…

You're dodging my point. Greece isn't simply arguing that, morality being relative and all, they've decided not to pay back their debts. They are demanding more money from their creditors. It seems like they have to: they're running a primary deficit; they're losing money even before you take debt service into account. Whatever the moral dimension of paying back their debt is has nothing to do with the question of wh…

No, the greeks don't demand more money. They want to make the debt viable, in order to be able to pay it.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#306

Post by twobits »

ssalazar wrote: post #238
calibraxis wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greece among others pardoned your Nazi debts and reparations in 1953, helping you rise. Greeks did nothing so terrible to "owe a debt". You owe them a debt which is far stronger than promises ("debt") held by investors, part of which was from the dictatorship and therefore odious debt. Piketty: "When I hear the Germans say that they maintain a very moral stance about debt and strongly believe that debts must be repai…

Pffff ridiculous. Can we starting calling this the Godwin's Law of economics? Economic policy intended to rebuild an entire continent after the most traumatic conflict in its history is necessarily going to differ from policy during times of peace.

So your solution is for greece to start WW3?

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#307

Post by abandonliberty »

HSO wrote: post #263

At the risk of being a moralizing bore, may I remind everybody that "Germany", "Greece" etc. are not people, and that people are not countries? I am surprised by the national coloring, however faint, of some comments here and there https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9835433 . "I am a German" or "Greek here" should have no relevance to the ideas put forth. "Your money" and "your banks" are not really "my money" and…

Yes, we are interpreting the nations of individuals, rather than nations composed of many individuals.

If I buy a home and am forced to eat ramen to pay for it, that's entirely separate from my estranged uncle's mafia loan shark forcing me to eat ramen.

Modern day slavery - debt bondage - also passes from generation to generation. You don't choose where you are born.

This is a very complex and ambiguous situation.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#308

Post by alexandros »

tptacek wrote: post #295
alexandros wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the intrinsics. It's the whole list of special one-off factors at play. By the way, Greece started privatization in the 90's, not in 2015. When there's no external assistance and the government pays loans out of its budget, it means it's not paying something else internally, usually some business it owes money to. If you feel that that is a non-factor in economic destruction and therefore tax receipts, then…

Whatever privatization they started in the 90s, there was a newsworthy spike in it after the troika negotiations started; here's the Reuters piece I was thinking of when I mentioned privatization earlier: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/28/us-greece-politics...

Another reason why you shouldn't take this year as idicative. However, you said "2015 Greece has begun privatization" whereas the article says the exact opposite. I'm not sure what point you're debating at this point.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#309

Post by exceptione »

elorant wrote: post #176
paskster wrote: post #23

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

Wow the amount of ignorance in this comment is staggering. Many countries have deficits for decades. Greece’s debt ballooned once we entered the Eurozone. From the hundreds of billions given as loans less than 20% went to our economy. Most were used to bailout EU banks, namely French and German ones. Greece never lived up to the agreement? Then how on earth did our GDP fall by 30% in five years? How come unemployment…

  The reason we rejected thelast bailout was because it didn’t include any
 terms of debt relief which is the only way for the economy to recover.
Well, according to many the way to recover is to make sure the state doesn't spend too much. The public sector is way too big and inefficient. Many european voters were against plunging into depts so that the money could be sent to greece. European leaders did it in anyway, in part to save the banks. Everyone in the other euro countries is carrying a huge dept for you right now, thousands of euro's even for newborns.

Even though the european leaders vowed to their voters that all their money was going to be paid back to them, Greece had to pay back less than the european voters gave due to low interest and generous installments. Some earlier debts were written off already.

Also, if Greece would have started to give the creditors slight hints that they were actually making the economy more healthy, than it would be easier for the euro leaders to break their pledges and forgive debts.

The current economy doesn't suffer from the debts, it is suffering because it is structurally broken. Before Tsipras started to take over, the economy was getting better. He increased government spending.

Even if all Greece's debts were forgiven, it would still have the problem of a third world economy. RIGHT NOW Tsipras is asking for more money, because the economy is structurally not sustainable.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#310

Post by tptacek »

twobits wrote: post #305
tptacek wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're dodging my point. Greece isn't simply arguing that, morality being relative and all, they've decided not to pay back their debts. They are demanding more money from their creditors. It seems like they have to: they're running a primary deficit; they're losing money even before you take debt service into account. Whatever the moral dimension of paying back their debt is has nothing to do with the question of wh…

No, the greeks don't demand more money. They want to make the debt viable, in order to be able to pay it.

I don't understand. Aren't the terms the Greeks are negotiating over additional financing from the EC, ECB, and IMF?
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