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Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

nytimes.com

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Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#121

Post by kochthesecond »

liebknecht wrote: post #88
paskster wrote: post #23

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

The reason you're "astounded" by all these comments may have to do with the fact that you seem to rather limited awareness of the basic history regarding Greece's current situation. For example, there's no mention at all in your remarks about the well-known shenanigans that led to Greece joining the Eurozone (and camouflaging its debts) in the first place (with the connivance of certain large foreign banks). Or of th…

This is what it looks like from the other side. What do you mean was responsible with how the country was run?

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#122

Post by jessaustin »

minot wrote: post #92
atmosx wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you are convinced that Germany acted in Greece's best interest is what sets us apart. Your money went mainly to your Banks, via Greece. Concluding, I'd rather go back to the Drachma and blow the Euro project than die starving becuase it suits your country's political class. ps. Even if Greece doesn't put the last nail on the coffin of the EU-project, I'm 100% sure that the UK will.

> Concluding, I'd rather go back to the Drachma and blow the Euro project than die starving becuase it suits your country's political class. Serious question: Why do you think switching currency to Drachma will solve anything? From what I've heard and read, Greece can't spend its way out of this problem because it lacks trust among creditors.

They won't follow Capt. Germany's (self-serving) rules, so they'll be kicked off the euro boat. Right now some might imagine that life will go on as before, but the simple physics of buoyancy will mean they'll have to start swimming eventually.

But... there's nothing wrong with swimming! Sure, the drachma will plummet against the euro, dollar, etc. So no one will be able to afford an iPhone. But their factories, farmers, and fisherman will be ideally placed to produce for and export to the rest of Europe, because they'll be selling cheap. They'll issue bonds denominated in drachma, and sure those will have to yield more than euro-denominated bonds in the short term, but that won't last forever.

When entitlements are denominated in drachma as well, they don't have to borrow anything to pay for them. (If they issue bonds for the purpose rather than just printing money, that's more honest but it doesn't change anything.) Entitlement ppp value just naturally drops and rises with that of their national currency. So, it will hurt at first, but after exporters start ramping up it will get better.

Greece doesn't need the euro, the euro doesn't need Greece, and the Grexit won't turn Greece into the Congo.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#123

Post by tomp »

mnglkhn2 wrote: post #67
paskster wrote: post #23

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

It's like everybody all of the sudden will come to the conclusion that paying their mortgages is somehow a humiliating and oppressive endeavor. Nobody is really familiar with what the "oppressive" terms really are, but everybody feels like the Greeks are totally undeserving of paying their debts. How does everybody feel like to have their subway fares reduced to $0, the way the Greeks had them for the past decades? I…

> It's like everybody all of the sudden will come to the conclusion that paying their mortgages is somehow a humiliating and oppressive endeavor.

The better analogy is the handling of "deadbeat dads" who don't pay child support. The government's response is to confiscate their drivers license. It doesn't require a genius that then they really won't be able to pay child support. At least in the case when non-payment was the result of unemployment or lower salary, which was undoubtedly a significant number of cases.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#124

Post by crimsoneer »

jwdunne wrote: post #58
paskster wrote: post #23

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

Except that major spending cuts during a downturn are harmful, which is what Greece has been in pretty much since austerity. Greece has problems, I admit, but austerity during a downturn only makes that worse. Party comes along and says it wants to do invest in the economy because, clearly, austerity isn't working and we won't give them a chance. There are reports from the IMF and many other leading figures that now…

Greece was doing rather well at the end of 2014 before Syriza decided to stop playing ball.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#125

Post by calibraxis »

paskster wrote: post #59
atmosx wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you are convinced that Germany acted in Greece's best interest is what sets us apart. Your money went mainly to your Banks, via Greece. Concluding, I'd rather go back to the Drachma and blow the Euro project than die starving becuase it suits your country's political class. ps. Even if Greece doesn't put the last nail on the coffin of the EU-project, I'm 100% sure that the UK will.

I am very pro Euro. But I don't like the fact that a single country in Europe feels that 18 other countries have to pay their debt. These bailouts in the past were signed from the greece government in the best interest of its people. A lot of people make it seem that we (non-greece european) somewhat forced theses agreements onto greece. In fact these bailouts where were unpopular in Germany, because it cost us a lot…

Greece among others pardoned your Nazi debts and reparations in 1953, helping you rise. Greeks did nothing so terrible to "owe a debt". You owe them a debt which is far stronger than promises ("debt") held by investors, part of which was from the dictatorship and therefore odious debt.

Piketty: "When I hear the Germans say that they maintain a very moral stance about debt and strongly believe that debts must be repaid, then I think: what a huge joke! Germany is the country that has never repaid its debts. It has no standing to lecture other nations.(https://medium.com/@gavinschalliol/thomas-piketty-germany-ha...)

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#126

Post by tptacek »

paskster wrote: post #59
atmosx wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you are convinced that Germany acted in Greece's best interest is what sets us apart. Your money went mainly to your Banks, via Greece. Concluding, I'd rather go back to the Drachma and blow the Euro project than die starving becuase it suits your country's political class. ps. Even if Greece doesn't put the last nail on the coffin of the EU-project, I'm 100% sure that the UK will.

I am very pro Euro. But I don't like the fact that a single country in Europe feels that 18 other countries have to pay their debt. These bailouts in the past were signed from the greece government in the best interest of its people. A lot of people make it seem that we (non-greece european) somewhat forced theses agreements onto greece. In fact these bailouts where were unpopular in Germany, because it cost us a lot…

I wonder what the EU expected. How is this morally different from the fact that most of the other 49 US states pay for the debts of Mississippi? If we hadn't been doing it on a long-term continual basis, and MS ran its own economy, we'd be talking about "bailing them out". But life support to MS is the long-term normal in the US economy.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#127

Post by christkv »

I think one of the core problems in the whole euro zone disaster was the ability of previous governments with low credit ratings suddenly going from paying 8-10% on their bonds to 2-3%. Basically the lenders completely ignored historic risk, counting on the richer euro countries to bail out any country that abused the cheap credit.

I think we are seeing the effect of that policy. For the people who are demonizing the Greeks I would like to remind them that it takes two to party.

The drunk sailor who wastes all his money, and the fool who lends him more money, expecting to be repaid.

Either there is a full currency union with the transfers (meaning more and more federal like rule) or we will get some sort of collapse of the euro zone at some point in the future.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#128

Post by tedunangst »

liebknecht wrote: post #88
paskster wrote: post #23

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

The reason you're "astounded" by all these comments may have to do with the fact that you seem to rather limited awareness of the basic history regarding Greece's current situation. For example, there's no mention at all in your remarks about the well-known shenanigans that led to Greece joining the Eurozone (and camouflaging its debts) in the first place (with the connivance of certain large foreign banks). Or of th…

You make it sound like Greece's debt was camouflaged against its will.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#129

Post by arethuza »

frivoal wrote: post #110
hal9000xp wrote: post #9

Here is Bloomberg animation for european debt crisis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8xAXJx9WJ8 I kept this in my bookmarks more than a year. Euro is failed project by its core because monetary policy without fiscal polity doesn't work.

It's a pretty good video. One thing it doesn't cover (or only implies) is that the debtor's countries spending plays a role in fueling the richer countries economies. Germany is in a better situation because of many fundamentals, but exporting to Greece (on borrowed money) didn't hurt. Borrowing to spend without considering whether you can repay is irresponsible. Lending money to someone so that they can buy from you…

Worth noting that "Greece accounts for less than half a percent of German exports"

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/01/eurozone-greece-in...

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#130

Post by jwdunne »

crimsoneer wrote: post #124
jwdunne wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that major spending cuts during a downturn are harmful, which is what Greece has been in pretty much since austerity. Greece has problems, I admit, but austerity during a downturn only makes that worse. Party comes along and says it wants to do invest in the economy because, clearly, austerity isn't working and we won't give them a chance. There are reports from the IMF and many other leading figures that now…

Greece was doing rather well at the end of 2014 before Syriza decided to stop playing ball.

I don't see an unemployment rate of 25% plus more spending cuts inbound as doing rather well. It was falling but very slowly.
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