Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 412 posts

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#61

Post by natrius »

tptacek wrote: post #47
natrius wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Its deficit is still like 9-10% of GDP." This is very wrong. Greece has run primary surpluses in recent years. They will probably miss that goal this year, but not by 9-10% of GDP. Forgiving Greek debts would solve the problem. http://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2015/02/greece-and-primary-s...

Apparently the deficit is more like 3% (depending on whether you believe Greece's own stats, or the EU's. Forgiving debt by definition doesn't change the primary surplus, right? The primary surplus is the budget before taking interest payments into account. And that's the whole premise of not bailing Greece out on Greek terms, right? That bailing them out doesn't accomplish anything if they're still on a course to ra…

Years of primary surpluses are clear evidence that Greece is capable of funding its own ongoing spending. This year is an aberration due to the crisis. If the debt were forgiven, I don't think Greece would need outside funds in 2016. Greece isn't asking for forgiveness though—they're asking for restructuring.

Greek fiscal policy is not unsustainable. Much of it is unwise, but still affordable.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#62

Post by atmosx »

dkopi wrote: post #48
paskster wrote: post #23

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

One thing's for sure, without countries to bail them out, without banks to lend them more money - the greeks will have no other choice but to increase their tax income and decrease their spending. Austerity as some might call it.

If the ECB keeps the current regime for another 2 to 3 weeks, then Greece might be "forced" to go back to the Drachma and devalue. At that point you don't need to increase tax incomes but you might have a series of other problems (control devaluations, impose capital control for an undetermined period, etc.) - but in the long run, might be positive (According, to Krugman, Stiglitz, S. Keen, etc.)

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#63

Post by ypcx »

paskster wrote: post #23

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

It is staggering how brainwashed you are. Please try to form your opinion elsewhere than from the mainstream media.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#65

Post by wongarsu »

atmosx wrote: post #43
paskster wrote: post #23

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

The fact that you are convinced that Germany acted in Greece's best interest is what sets us apart. Your money went mainly to your Banks, via Greece. Concluding, I'd rather go back to the Drachma and blow the Euro project than die starving becuase it suits your country's political class. ps. Even if Greece doesn't put the last nail on the coffin of the EU-project, I'm 100% sure that the UK will.

Of course Germany didn't do this because they love charity. But it is meant to be mutually beneficial: German banks get their money, Greece can stay in the Euro and can get further loans. It's not great for Greece, but the alternatives aren't much better.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#66

Post by kansface »

dantheman wrote: post #34
paskster wrote: post #23

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

The transfers to greece of the last few years were to a large extent a way of transferring private debt of german and french banks to the general EU populace. Overall, I agree - greece needs to get its house in order and that involves making tough decisions, cutting jobs, lowering benefits, etc. They don't have the revenue to support the quality of life that they want to provide.

They have ~25% unemployment - over 50% for youth... it seems like they already did plenty of that.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#67

Post by mnglkhn2 »

paskster wrote: post #23

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

It's like everybody all of the sudden will come to the conclusion that paying their mortgages is somehow a humiliating and oppressive endeavor. Nobody is really familiar with what the "oppressive" terms really are, but everybody feels like the Greeks are totally undeserving of paying their debts. How does everybody feel like to have their subway fares reduced to $0, the way the Greeks had them for the past decades? I think it is just fair that New Yorkers travel at the expense of the NY State, otherwise it is totally oppressive! /sarcasm

Lots of projections in all these opinions. But for somebody that actually had to go through austerity measures, I am not happy to see others asking for a handout, with the only justification being "just because, Greek history".

EDIT: and if you downvote, at least be New Yorker enough, and justify your action. Otherwise, I would say that you just want a handout.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#68

Post by wmkn »

tomp wrote: post #17
imaginenore wrote: post #5

I really hope EU doesn't propose any more bailouts / help to them until they sober up and go through the withdrawal and all the grief stages.

Greece doesn't actually need any more bailouts (at least, it didn't until last week). They run a primary budget surplus, so all they need from the EU & IMF is some kind of debt restructuring so they can stop all debt payments for a few years while they pass the necessary reforms and their economy recovers. They also need a guarantee that the banks are safe by the ECB to restore confidence, but that doesn't cost any m…

The IMF released a report last week stating that in addition to substantial debt relief the Greeks need an additional bailout of EUR60 billion.

Both Varoufakis and Tsipras tweeted their agreement with the report. It seems pretty clear that Greece won't make it without another big bailout package.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#69

Post by quonn »

tormeh wrote: post #54
tptacek wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the difference between "crippling austerity" and "keeping spending within their means"? Isn't the biggest financial problem in Greece the relative enormity of the public sector? Wouldn't fiscal reform basically amount to slashing entitlements and public sector employment?

A public sector can be enormous without damaging the economy. In Scandinavian countries it's about 50% and used to be higher. The problem is that the Greek government is both bad and weak. The Greek public sector's purpose is not really to provide utility to the populace, but to buy votes from the unions. It's very hard to pay for because it does not enrichen the private sector nearly as much as it should. And becaus…

> Greece is not just insolvent, it's also practically a failed state.

Syria, Iraq - those are failed states. Greece just managed to organise a democratic referendum peacefully and efficiently - within a week. A failed state looks different to me.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#70

Post by NotableAlamode »

dantheman wrote: post #34
paskster wrote: post #23

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

The transfers to greece of the last few years were to a large extent a way of transferring private debt of german and french banks to the general EU populace. Overall, I agree - greece needs to get its house in order and that involves making tough decisions, cutting jobs, lowering benefits, etc. They don't have the revenue to support the quality of life that they want to provide.

    The transfers to greece of the last few years were to a large extent a way of transferring private debt of german and french banks to the general EU populace.
This is just not the case. Only about 1/3 of the bailout money went this way (and certainly not to the "general EU populace", only to some european tax payers). The remaining 2/3 went to Greek consumption in some form or other. It is estimated that 1/3 of the bailout money went to off-shore accounts.

Moreover, taking on Greek debt is a massive gift to Greece, for this money no longer needs to be paid back, hence is a gift.

Post reply on HN