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Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

nytimes.com

211–220 of 412 posts

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Googled, "greece primary surplus". First result: http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/02/16/greece-st... Second paragraph, krugman quote: "Despite this catastrophe, Greece is making payments to its creditors, running a primary surplus — an excess of revenue over spending other than interest — of around 1.5 percent of G.D.P." How much did you look, and where are you seeing the opposite information on primary d…

The title of that article you have linked to is "Greece Still Has A Vast Problem; It Doesn't Have A Primary Budget Surplus"

Nobody says Greece is running a surplus today. It has been paying loans for a year without external assistance. Plase read the thread and what I was responding to.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This approach creates a more unified country because people are able to make their own decisions and live with them. I don't know why you would assume that: There's a whole host of tensions that come with decisions made at the state level. Reciprocity is a huge one that comes up semi-frequently (for example with firearm laws). > People are able to move within the country to states with policies more in line with th…

> This approach creates a more unified country because people are able to make their own decisions and live with them. >>I don't know why you would assume that: There's a whole host of tensions that come with decisions made at the state level. Reciprocity is a huge one that comes up semi-frequently (for example with firearm laws). There are and those get to be negotiated and worked out. The tensions arise, such as wi…

> The tensions arise, such as with firearms laws, because states don't see eye to eye on those issues so they get to dictate exactly how things work in their own states

That causes some AWFUL problems for people traveling between states, which is incredibly common nowadays because of air travel.

Google for the myriad of really terrible stories involving people accidentally traveling to New Jersey with a firearm. In at least a few cases they were forced to travel to New Jersey because of an airline mistake (unexpected layovers, misplaced luggage, etc.). Reciprocity is a much bigger issue than you're making it out to be.

> The extreme example counter response is never far behind in political discourse.

"States Rights" almost always comes up as an argument in the context of human rights violations. I don't think it's too extreme to remind people of that.

> There's a whole host of other policies that don't though.

Where's that line get drawn? If I frame marijuana as a human rights issue (see: the racial discrepancies in conviction rates for drug offenses), does it become ok for the federal government to resolve then?

> They are crises because they have to be balanced.

Errr no? There are plenty of states that are "balanced" only because the federal government gives them copious amounts of money, well in excess of their GSP.

They're "balanced" but to call it anything other than artificially balanced is silly.

> There's a wide gap between those issues and virtually every other policy in the country being effected by a broad reading of the interstate commerce clause.

Those are the primary issues anti-federalists bring up when States' rights comes up as a discussion, both historically and currently (not slavery obviously, but same-sex marriage is an incredibly recent one).

If you're talking about things like the drinking age (which isn't even really a mandate, just an extreme carrot on a stick), then sure, whatever - but who cares? Those are trivial issues in comparison.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#213

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

If you feel that "Greece" must be punished for fiscal irresponsibility with chaos and starvation, then while we're still bundling people into convenient country packages, why shouldn't "the USA" be bombed and occupied? Oh, those wars and massacres weren't your decisions? Then, you think the average Greek took those Eurozone loans and bailouts themselves?

Perhaps because the US hasn't yet voted not to pay its debts.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This approach creates a more unified country because people are able to make their own decisions and live with them. I don't know why you would assume that: There's a whole host of tensions that come with decisions made at the state level. Reciprocity is a huge one that comes up semi-frequently (for example with firearm laws). > People are able to move within the country to states with policies more in line with th…

> This approach creates a more unified country because people are able to make their own decisions and live with them. >>I don't know why you would assume that: There's a whole host of tensions that come with decisions made at the state level. Reciprocity is a huge one that comes up semi-frequently (for example with firearm laws). There are and those get to be negotiated and worked out. The tensions arise, such as wi…

Sorry but the Republic does not enshrine states' rights nearly as much as you say. One policy I have problem with is the open alcohol container policy that is nominally at the state level but is actually at the federal level enforced by the federal highway funding.

There are a lot of fundamental issues that we need to address at a federal level. I don't think it is decided that a strong central government causes a break down in the union of states.

Off-topic: I blew a zero in three different breathalyzers. Who comes up with idiotic rules like if you have an open container in the vehicle (that I never touched) I am automatically guilty of drunk driving?

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#215
I'm not a financial expert and can't speak to what's true or not, but here's [1] a short interview with Swedens former Tax Agency chief who was apparently part of a small task force to evaluate Greece's tax collection and aid in its improvement.

He claims that removing corruption is not the only problem, and that the rest of the EU are underestimating the lack of tax collection competence with regards to modern methods and processes, as well as the powerlessness and political isolation of the Greek tax chief, making his/her job impossible - e.g. by not even being allowed to pick his/her own employees.

Again, I don't know what's true or not, just providing the opinion of a former Tax Agency chief of a country that collects a lot of taxes and who apparently had the opportunity to take a closer look at Greece's tax collection.

Google Translate does a decent job with the article translation.

[1] https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=y&prev...

EDIT: Grammar.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#216

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

> 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the country and the people.

That's a legend. The money went to the banks and to various arms companies.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#217

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

Of course, the flip side is:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9832222

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You responded 2 mins after I posted. Did you read the Die Zeit interview with Piketty which I linked to? What do you think about points like: "I am much more afraid that the conservatives, especially in Germany, are about to destroy Europe and the European idea, all because of their shocking ignorance of history. [...] Look at the history of national debt: Great Britain, Germany, and France were all once in the situa…

Before responding, I skimmed the Piketty interview to verify that he was, in fact, talking about Germany's war debt, and not debt generated through insolvency. I'm not moralizing debt. I am, however, according sovereign states and their constituent organizations the agency to decide whether or not to finance other sovereign states. However much honor you accord to debt service, the prospect that (expensive) debt forg…

Debt is fundamentally about morality. Otherwise everyone would accord Greece the agency to shrug and ignore it, like politicians break promises to consituents, or big companies ignore their debts to smaller ones. Instead, children worldwide are condemned to misery ("austerity"), because of moral statements like "you have to pay your debts". Though they did nothing to deserve it.

As for Greece's finances, that's exactly what the negotiations are about. A political issue. (After all, money is a purely social construct, not some law of physics. Underlying it is power relations and violence.)

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason you're "astounded" by all these comments may have to do with the fact that you seem to rather limited awareness of the basic history regarding Greece's current situation. For example, there's no mention at all in your remarks about the well-known shenanigans that led to Greece joining the Eurozone (and camouflaging its debts) in the first place (with the connivance of certain large foreign banks). Or of th…

As opposed to "look at those Germans, they're terrorists who are using control of the ECB to extort a regime change in Greece", which is an equally hyperbolic message --- and, in contrast the to the summary you've provided, actually a message overtly sent by Greece's leadership.

Except that Varoufakis was referring the Troika (or rather, their actions: he used the word "terrorism", not the more loaded term "terrorist") when he said that, not to the Germans as a people (or even to German banks, or their politicians).

At no point in the El Mundo article did he call the Germans "terrorists", and -- worse than hyperbolic -- it's irresponsible for you to suggest that he did.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#220

The real problem is that banks lent to Greece without doing their due diligence evaluating risk. Instead the bankers collected their fat fees for making the loans. Usually when banks make bad loans they have to write them off but when in 2010 the Troika (Euro Community, IMF, ECB) took over the Greek debt they paid 100% instead of insisting on the banks taking a "haircut" of say 50%. In truth some of the smaller membe…

I have to agree.. "investment" is about risk/reward... businesses should be allowed to fail, and should have to suffer real consequences. When they get bailed out, it should have conditions attached, and in this case, it was mismanaged all around. I actually really appreciate the approach that Iceland forced on the issue, vs. how we here in the U.S. dealt with things. Yes, it was a hard decision with hard consequences, but was much more right imho.

I really wish that legislation regarding the financial industry were much closer to Canada's, as an example.

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