Greeks Reject Bailout Terms • Hacker News Board

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#131

Post by Mikeb85 » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 9:32 PM UTC

dkopi wrote: post #48

paskster wrote: post #23

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

One thing's for sure, without countries to bail them out, without banks to lend them more money - the greeks will have no other choice but to increase their tax income and decrease their spending. Austerity as some might call it.

Take away the debt payments, they're already running a surplus. No new loans = no reason to pay creditors. This is a worse outcome for Germany than Greece...

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#132

Post by endymi0n » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 9:33 PM UTC

I'm astounded at the fight here between pro and contra austerity. It's not about to save or not to save - it's about where to save. Greece could (have) bailed out itself with just a semi-decent stab against rampant corruption, without endangering the common people at all. Switzerland offered to collect billions of Euros of Greek tax offenders on Swiss accounts on their own. The List with the names "disappeared", and some years and dozens of questions later, reappeared with half the names removed. Switzerland's still waiting for Greece to make a move. While the last weeks were all about the 1.5 bil EUR rate, Greeks moved 3 bil EUR out of the country every fricking day. Greece infamously doesn't even have a register who owns which property and real estate.

Greece is still in the top 5 state: of military spending per capita, and the list goes on.

No matter how much money you pour into this banana republic, it's just going to evaporate on the way there.

Still, their best option is probably where they are going already: a proper default and return to a weaker currency, just as it helped iceland.

http://netrightdaily.com/2015/06/icelandic-default-could-sav...

Still won't help, if they don't tackle corruption as well.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#133

Post by mnglkhn2 » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 9:33 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #123

mnglkhn2 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like everybody all of the sudden will come to the conclusion that paying their mortgages is somehow a humiliating and oppressive endeavor. Nobody is really familiar with what the "oppressive" terms really are, but everybody feels like the Greeks are totally undeserving of paying their debts. How does everybody feel like to have their subway fares reduced to $0, the way the Greeks had them for the past decades? I…

> It's like everybody all of the sudden will come to the conclusion that paying their mortgages is somehow a humiliating and oppressive endeavor. The better analogy is the handling of "deadbeat dads" who don't pay child support. The government's response is to confiscate their drivers license. It doesn't require a genius that then they really won't be able to pay child support. At least in the case when non-payment w…

I agree with your point. And it is true that the austerity measures have hit the most vulnerable in the society. But I found it problematic to maintain that the whole Greece is made of "deadbeat dads", my point being that the Greek elite is not shouldering their part of the recovery effort.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#134

Post by andmarios » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 9:33 PM UTC

paskster wrote: post #23

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

The main reason billions of euros “transferred” to Greece were to save German and French banks. This way our politicians (european citizens' politicians) turned a private debt to public debt that just keeps growing because everyone on the globe thinks that it is unserviceable, thus refuses to lent us.

At the same time they sold us a “bad europe” story and sold you a “bad greeks” story. Most of the facts circling around (e.g Greeks average retirement age) are myths. Germany's minimum wage is double the average greek pension. Our prices in common goods don't differ much. One of the terms of our previous bailout was that people under 25 should work for 511 euros per month —that is gross salary. Can you survive on 400 euros per month (salary after deductions) in Germany? Neither can you in Greece. Now they want us to work for 300 euros a month. Do you think this is fair?

We have a common currency. The currency's main purpose is to be used for the citizens' well being. But we can't manipulate our currency anymore because the rest of the EZ members (particularly Germany) have different plans. What can we do?

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#135

Post by haberman » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 9:34 PM UTC

llamataboot wrote: post #96

mnglkhn2 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like everybody all of the sudden will come to the conclusion that paying their mortgages is somehow a humiliating and oppressive endeavor. Nobody is really familiar with what the "oppressive" terms really are, but everybody feels like the Greeks are totally undeserving of paying their debts. How does everybody feel like to have their subway fares reduced to $0, the way the Greeks had them for the past decades? I…

You do realize that plenty of US states carry a "deficit" right? Many states receive more money from the Federal budget than they pay back in. We can debate why this is the case, but I don't hear anyone telling Mississippi or Alabama to suck the bitter pill of austerity or leave the US.

> You do realize that plenty of US states carry a "deficit" right? Many states receive more money from the Federal budget than they pay back in.

That's not a "deficit." If that was a deficit, than every person in the US who pays less than $11,000 in tax would be running a "deficit." That's just the way governments work: the amount you pay in tax and the amount of services you get back from the government aren't always the same. But we do all have representation in the authority that chooses how to spend the pot of money.

Greece is different because they have sovereignty over their budget. Greece's taxes aren't collected by the ECB (with enforcement power) and there is no European body deciding how the taxes will be spent.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#136

Post by abrezas » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 9:34 PM UTC

paskster wrote: post #23

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

For me, there are several reasons why the rest of the eurozone should help Greece get back on its feet, rather than only give it more loans:

1) Due to being in the monetary union, Greece is not able to print more money, devalue its currency or other monetary policies to help its economy. Greece is paying the price of being in a monetary union, and it should either get help from the other members of that union, or it is not really a union.

2) Also, take into account that Germany and other countries are benefitting from this monetary union by being able to use a currency that is devalued due to the poorer countries, and therefore is able to increase its export.

3) Much of the bailout went into the banks of other eurozone members therefore helping them as well.

4) Do not forget that Greece if not in the eurozone would be able to default on its debts, live on the primary surplus it is now generating and when it is considered a good debtor to get loans again. Instead of having to exit the eurozone (which would be a bad sign for the whole union) and default on its debts (which would mean other countries losing money) and THEN grow, it may be beneficial to everyone to do a debt restructuring.

5) Greece is paying an interest on the loan given to them to be able to pay the older debts to the ECB and others. They are not able to pay that interest on the subsequent loans and are asking to be able to use that for economic growth to pay the older loans! In a sense, you can see that as debt restructuring, which can also happen in other ways. This way creditors will also get their money back, altough restructured or payed later.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#137

Post by alexandros » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 9:34 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #73

natrius wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Years of primary surpluses are clear evidence that Greece is capable of funding its own ongoing spending. This year is an aberration due to the crisis. If the debt were forgiven, I don't think Greece would need outside funds in 2016. Greece isn't asking for forgiveness though—they're asking for restructuring. Greek fiscal policy is not unsustainable. Much of it is unwise, but still affordable.

Can you cite some sources for the years of primary surplus? I'm looking for them, and the stats I'm seeing all suggest years of severe deficits.

Googled, "greece primary surplus". First result: http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/02/16/greece-st...

Second paragraph, krugman quote:

"Despite this catastrophe, Greece is making payments to its creditors, running a primary surplus — an excess of revenue over spending other than interest — of around 1.5 percent of G.D.P."

How much did you look, and where are you seeing the opposite information on primary deficit the last few years?

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#138

Post by MrBuddyCasino » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 9:35 PM UTC

NotableAlamode wrote: post #70

dantheman wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The transfers to greece of the last few years were to a large extent a way of transferring private debt of german and french banks to the general EU populace. Overall, I agree - greece needs to get its house in order and that involves making tough decisions, cutting jobs, lowering benefits, etc. They don't have the revenue to support the quality of life that they want to provide.

The transfers to greece of the last few years were to a large extent a way of transferring private debt of german and french banks to the general EU populace. This is just not the case. Only about 1/3 of the bailout money went this way (and certainly not to the "general EU populace", only to some european tax payers). The remaining 2/3 went to Greek consumption in some form or other. It is estimated that 1/3 of the b…

I'd be very interested in sources for this.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#139

Post by FlannelPancake » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 9:37 PM UTC

brightball wrote: post #32

yc1010 wrote: post #3

Fairplay to them, the whole point of the EU project was to make us all "Europeans" and to prevent constant disastrous fighting between states and people of the continent. Sometime in the last 10 years many people and the media in the "core" countries got all smug and uppity towards those lazy "peripherals" and so on forgetting exactly why the project was started, overnight we stopped being "Europeans" and became "und…

It's a similar issue that we see in the US. There are a number of people (and the entire Constitution) that pushes for state level decisions unless it's absolutely necessary at the Federal level. This approach creates a more unified country because people are able to make their own decisions and live with them. States are able to compete economically. People are able to move within the country to states with policies…

> This approach creates a more unified country because people are able to make their own decisions and live with them.

I don't know why you would assume that: There's a whole host of tensions that come with decisions made at the state level. Reciprocity is a huge one that comes up semi-frequently (for example with firearm laws).

> People are able to move within the country to states with policies more in line with their own views.

"Just move" is an ok answer if your beef is, say, with Oregon's gas pumping laws.

It's a really awful answer if your problem is that your state allows "separate but equal" bathrooms for black people. Those suffering at the hands of those extreme policies are also the least likely to have the means to move.

> States have to have balanced budgets

I don't know why you think that. State budget crises aren't unknown or even all that uncommon.

> There's a push in this country lately to do everything at a Federal level though

Because for most of the history of the United States, human rights issues have only been resolved at the federal level. Slavery, segregation, women's suffrage, and same-sex marriage have all been framed as "States Rights" issues.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#140

Post by derriz » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 9:37 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #17

imaginenore wrote: post #5

I really hope EU doesn't propose any more bailouts / help to them until they sober up and go through the withdrawal and all the grief stages.

Greece doesn't actually need any more bailouts (at least, it didn't until last week). They run a primary budget surplus, so all they need from the EU & IMF is some kind of debt restructuring so they can stop all debt payments for a few years while they pass the necessary reforms and their economy recovers. They also need a guarantee that the banks are safe by the ECB to restore confidence, but that doesn't cost any m…

They are NOT running a primary surplus - this claim has been debunked.

http://www.dw.com/en/the-truth-about-greeces-primary-surplus... http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/02/16/greece-st...