Live data from Hacker News

Individuals with social phobia have too much serotonin

sciencedaily.com

101–109 of 109 posts

Re: Individuals with social phobia have too much serotonin

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a good thing that science can change. This is what distinguishes science from dogma. The problem is not these supposed 'reversals', but rather how this information is being reported. Pop-science media reports modest studies as absolute truths to catch eyeballs. When one study merely suggests research in one direction, it's emblazoned as fact on the tabloids. In the example you identified: "Fatty food is bad - no…

> So I'd argue that the bigger problem is people reading oversimplified reports of scientific information. And what about the AHA[1] and other policy makers and shapers? What leads them to make recommendations based on weakly established conclusions? I think the pressure to deliver, and the lack of generalist knowledge are somehow involved here. In the case of food and drugs, I would also blame elitism. [1] http://ww…

I know nothing of the AHA's methods or qualifications, but in my view bad policies purportedly based upon science usually come from lack of these, in addition to lack of scientific literacy. Alternatively, from a predefined goal, i.e. a political agenda.

I'm curious: in what way would you blame elitism in those cases?

Re: Individuals with social phobia have too much serotonin

#102
Is low serotonin the cause of social phobia? or is social phobia the cause of low serotonin?. The evident power of mind over body is an uncomfortable truth for a few industries.

So we need some sort of cause & effect algebra so that fallacious and faulty reasoning doesn't get smuggled in the name of science, otherwise science is just some form of social control exploiting the power - highjacked from religion - of an alleged ownership over the truth.

Re: Individuals with social phobia have too much serotonin

#103
post #51
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it's more complicated than that. Your hand will start to tremble uncontrollably when someone looks at you. Your face will blush, your legs will start to shake. You might eventually go and vomit. Elevator filled with people is of course extreme case. But I was in the elevator alone. I just couldn't open the doors of the office, take a sit in my corner and greet all these great guys that I've worked with for many…

the last sentence is particularely intetesting to me. from the other things you've told i would have thought (and i don't know shit, really, so please bear with me) that the management stuff wasn't really what you loved which you wouldn't realize but subconciously you've got burned out. but again, i basically have no idea. however, i honestly whish you all the best.

I know you probably wrote your post in good faith, and you appear sympathetic to the posts you've replied to in this subthread.

I can see how you would jump to the assumption that there is something "wrong" in the person's life, as this is a universal reference point; Something bad happens in your life, and you feel bad about it.

But the fact is that most mental illnesses generally aren't a results of anything like what you've described.

There's no meaning behind them, and they're not rational - which is one of the reasons why they are described as illnesses.

This, in addition to severity, is some of the difference between an anxiety disorder and an anxious mood.

So the assumption made is basically dependent on your healthy perspective, and does not take into account the experience of people affected by mental illness.

If you really don't know much about mental illnesses (as you say in your post) I urge you to try to read up, as ignorance and stigma (which is to some extent a result of the former) are huge problems, even though mental illness is very common and affects around 20% of people, depending in the source (NIMH says 18.6 percent of all U.S. adults had a mental illness the previous year in 2012 [0]).

[0]: http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/prevalence/any-men...

Re: Individuals with social phobia have too much serotonin

#104
Almost 10 years ago I read a study that attributed (not too much or too little serotonin), but sending the wrong serotonin allele types for various social situations. This correlated to genetic predispositions to both social anxiety and certain forms of autism. It seems odd these later studies seem to be focusing on a far more general use case of whether more or less serotonin in general is a cause.

Re: Individuals with social phobia have too much serotonin

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude…getting shredded has always been the cure.

It's the natural cure

There are truly a lot of reasons why exercise contributes to good mental health. One of them is that it helps produce the correct balance of hormones in your system, which in turn also impact the correct balance of neurotransmitters. It's very easy, especially for us coders, to forget that we're sitting all day. Sitting all day is far from natural and has a tremendous amount of health impact. Exercise is extremely beneficial.

Re: Individuals with social phobia have too much serotonin

#106
That is not too surprising. On the one hand serotonine not only acts as a neurotransmitter, but has a mechanical function controlling blood-pressure and a multitude of other things as well. (See this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9476594)

Easier triggered bodily alertness in unpleasant situations probably creates a feedback-loop which shuts off rational thinking (frontal cortex) further -> anxiety.

On the other hand, I think a good metaphor for it's complex role as a neurotransmitter is "bandwidth". If your serotonine-levels are too low, some regions in your brain have trouble communicating with each other. Hence when your amygdala starts sending out signals of imminence, your rational prefrontal cortex might be able to think "No need to be afraid.", but it's not able to properly communicate that back. The other way around works too: the signals of imminence might not arrive clearly ("I didn't even realize I was afraid"), so you can't act properly.

If serotonine-levels are too high, this communication and loops might work TOO well. Imagine a "weak non-specific signal" from a confused (lack of a better word) amygdala that starts off a thought, which in turn throws the amygdala into a feedback-loop that you can't get out off. In that situation it would have been easier if the weak signal would have been dismissed in the first place.

Re: Individuals with social phobia have too much serotonin

#107

>> Previous studies have led researchers to believe that individuals with social anxiety disorder or social phobia have too low levels of the neurotransmitter serotonin. A new study, however, shows that the situation is exactly the opposite. It's stuff like this that is destroying the reputation of science in general. I know it's one thing to "lead to believe" and another to "show that", and perhaps that's what happe…

>> Previous studies have led researchers to believe that individuals with social anxiety disorder or social phobia have too low levels of the neurotransmitter serotonin. A new study, however, shows that the situation is exactly the opposite.

> It's stuff like this that is destroying the reputation of science in general.

the actual paper contains no such language of course, let me quote the introduction:

> Anxiety disorders are debilitating psychiatric conditions that impose a considerable burden on patients1 and society,2 and social anxiety disorder (SAD) is one of the most common of these conditions.3 The neural underpinnings of excessive social anxiety are not fully characterized, although serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine) has been suggested to be involved etiologically.4,5

> However, only a few studies have used molecular neuroimaging to examine serotonin dysfunction in SAD directly. A single-photon emission tomography study6 found increased serotonin transporter availability in the thalamus, but not in the raphe nuclei, in patients with SAD relative to healthy control individuals. Also, a positron emission tomography (PET) study7 showed that SAD is associated with reduced serotonin 1A receptor binding. Somatodendritic serotonin 1A autoreceptors in the raphe nuclei, which inhibit serotonin synthesis and release,8 and postsynaptic serotonin 1A heteroreceptors, which convey inhibitory signals in the amygdala, anterior cingulate cortex (ACC), and insula cortex, were downregulated.7 In addition, functional neuroimaging studies of SAD9 have demonstrated heightened, fear-induced neural reactivity in the amygdala, which is densely innervated by serotonin,10 with alterations in the hippocampus, ACC, insula cortex, and striatum.9,11 Moreover, the first line of pharmacologic treatment for SAD consists of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs),12- 14 which reduce excessive amygdala reactivity, restore initially suppressed ventromedial prefrontal cortex response to emotional challenge,15- 18 and attenuate resting brain perfusion in the ACC and insula.19 Thus, findings from molecular and functional neuroimaging and treatment studies indicate that serotonergic neurotransmission in the amygdala, raphe nuclei, striatum, thalamus, hippocampus, insula cortex, and ACC may be compromised in SAD.

> Given the inhibitory role of serotonin 1A autoreceptors on serotonin synthesis,8 previous findings of decreased autoreceptor binding in SAD7 may indicate increased serotonin formation and enhanced serotonergic activity. On the other hand, because blocking the serotonin reuptake with SSRIs attenuates social anxiety symptoms12,13 and because posttreatment dietary depletion of the serotonin precursor tryptophan reverses the anxiolytic effects of SSRIs,20 the notion that increased serotonin availability is pivotal for anxiety reduction also has support. Indeed, whether anxiety conditions such as SAD are best characterized by serotonin overactivity or underactivity remains a matter of debate.5

Re: Individuals with social phobia have too much serotonin

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not OP, but here's my story: I did not enjoy being on any SSRI or NRI so all my work has to be behavior. In general, all the approaches that have worked for me when it comes to changing behavior follows a pattern of: Perceive -> accept -> insight. This is in the context of a reaction to a stimulus. 1. Perceive the feeling and its reaction. First step is actually recognizing that I feel something and that I have a rea…

Yep: being able to tell the difference between feeling, perception and will is essential to my life. And acceptance: that is crucial as well. This is the fact: "I feel bad. OK, now what was I about to do with my classes today?" (This is a very simplified figure obviously).

Al lot of both really. Also, realising that you are generally amplifying most situations through a self destructive filter and trying as much as possible to be selfless and calm in most situations. This all helps.

Re: Individuals with social phobia have too much serotonin

#109
post #9

Hmmm.. having been on an SSRI (at the time I was depressed) and suffering from a mild to middling social anxiety disorder (which stems from a chronic childhood one which lessened as I reached my mid 20's), for me SSRI's made me feel indestructible and fearless. But they also made me feel like I had no emotions at all and removed sexual desire and affected pleasure, so I stopped taking them and instead dealt with the…

> I still get bouts, but I have a mechanism in place to handle the symptoms and they mostly dissipate. Can you tell me about the mechanism that helps you?

For me, it's a lot of accepting what I can change and putting things I can't in to perspective. Treating others as I'd like to be treated. And really, trying to find peace without creating conflict.

Think of it as a form of meditation, without the sitting and relaxing part. It is hard to explain because there are many layers to the technique, but keeping different aspects of your life in isolation is another important factor.

Bad day at work? When you walk out of your office, throw it away. Argument with your partner? When you leave your house, don't dwell on it. Stop beating yourself up about things... materialism isn't jut about physical objects, it's also about your environment. If you feel self entitled, you feel like things conspire against you more frequently. Accept that you're no better than anyone else, learn to love the incomprehensible..

There's no magic fix. Accept that. Drugs can mask your symptoms, but they can't fix the underlying problem if your attitude towards life doesn't also change.

This is all pretty vague I know, but without trying to sound like psychobabble - take what you can from my suggestions and reject what you doesn't work. And never let anyone tell you you're cured or still ill... you're cured when you feel cured. You will relapse, but if you fall back to your mecanism to survive all should fall back in to place.

Post reply on HN