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Safari is the new IE

nolanlawson.com

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Re: Safari is the new IE

#181

Post by braythwayt »

josefresco wrote: post #94
NietTim wrote: post #38

Nolan, I'm not familiar with what you do or have done, but have you ever tried to make a website back in the day? Ever tried to support IE6? 7? 8? IE literally broke the web. CSS rules which worked in every browser ever wouldn't work in IE. Entire webpages weren't formatting correctly, having to spend hours, days, on workarounds. Comparing Safari to IE is just wrong. Safari doesn't break the web, it 'just' lacks supp…

I built websites during that entire period. I saw the rise and fall of Netscape, the "dark ages" of browser development when Microsoft let IE rot - I witnessed the birth of Firefox and the re-ignition of the "browser wars" when Google launched Chrome, and Apple got serious with Safari by moving to WebKit. The author is right, the details aren't the same but the same attitude exists. The author is simply speaking up b…

  > Microsoft didn't "break the web" they created their own web
  > and then let it twist in the wind because they were pissed
  > about the government beat down.
I was around as well. My recollection is that they let it twist in the wind because SaaS competed with their two interdependent quasi-monopolies: Windows and Office.

Which is another instance of the Innovator's Dilemma: How can a successful company embrace technology that disrupts themselves?

Re: Safari is the new IE

#182

Post by vlunkr »

streptomycin wrote: post #91
NietTim wrote: post #38

Nolan, I'm not familiar with what you do or have done, but have you ever tried to make a website back in the day? Ever tried to support IE6? 7? 8? IE literally broke the web. CSS rules which worked in every browser ever wouldn't work in IE. Entire webpages weren't formatting correctly, having to spend hours, days, on workarounds. Comparing Safari to IE is just wrong. Safari doesn't break the web, it 'just' lacks supp…

What rules that had been there for tens of years were broken by IE6? IE6 was the best browser available when it was released, and the web standards ecosystem was nothing like it is today. I think the analogy is very clear. If you want to code like it's 2000, supporting IE6 is easy, because IE6 is a very good 2000 browser. If you want to code like it's 2010, supporting Safari is easy, because Safari is a very good 201…

You can install other browsers on iOS.

Re: Safari is the new IE

#183

Post by yzmtf2008 »

collyw wrote: post #170
streptomycin wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What rules that had been there for tens of years were broken by IE6? IE6 was the best browser available when it was released, and the web standards ecosystem was nothing like it is today. I think the analogy is very clear. If you want to code like it's 2000, supporting IE6 is easy, because IE6 is a very good 2000 browser. If you want to code like it's 2010, supporting Safari is easy, because Safari is a very good 201…

"Another difference is that MS never blocked you from installing a better browser, but Apple does that on iOS. That policy is becoming increasingly ridiculous..." Why has that not resulted in anti competitive behavior lawsuits? MS got in to a fair bit of trouble for similar things. They didn't stop you installing an alternative.

Because Apple does allow you to install other browsers.

But then again that depends on how you define browsers...

Re: Safari is the new IE

#184

Post by zimpenfish »

zecg wrote: post #36
tzakrajs wrote: post #25

Firefox renders pages terribly and is the real dud here. edit: not speed, but aesthetic quality and parity with Chrome/Safari

Mobile Firefox, however, is the only way to have a competent ad blocker on mobile: https://addons.mozilla.org/En-us/firefox/addon/ublock-origin...

Although Mobile Safari will no doubt get a deluge once iOS 9 is released.

cf. http://murphyapps.co/blog/2015/6/24/an-hour-with-safari-cont...

Re: Safari is the new IE

#185

Post by Someone1234 »

dredmorbius wrote: post #125
smrtinsert wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's amazing. Thanks for reminding me how much contempt they have for choice.

Not quite my area of expertise, but I believe that browsers on Android also tend to use the core Android browser components though they can dress them up slightly differently.

Browsers on Android are not required to use Android's built in WebViews. And several alternative browser engines are offered by the platform[0].

Android has no specific restrictions in place. Although it is the path of least resistance to use the built in WebView, since you now don't need to deploy your own.

[0] Including: Blink (Amazon Silk, Chrome, Opera), WebKit (BlackBerry, Dolphin, et al), Gecko (Firefox, Minimo), NetFront (Blazer). At the moment WebKit derivatives seem to be most popular, but several browsers re-build it from the source rather than just using Android's WebKit components.

Re: Safari is the new IE

#186

Post by glogla »

dredmorbius wrote: post #125
smrtinsert wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's amazing. Thanks for reminding me how much contempt they have for choice.

Not quite my area of expertise, but I believe that browsers on Android also tend to use the core Android browser components though they can dress them up slightly differently.

Some browsers do, but Firefox Mobile uses it's own core.

That makes it possible to use extensions like ublock, for much better browsing experience than any browser without ad blocker can provide.

Re: Safari is the new IE

#187

Post by __z »

gwbas1c wrote: post #11

The article misses the point. The browser is a document viewer, not an application delivery platform. Back in 2005 we all thought that web-based applications were going to take the world by storm, but now that we have slick application stores on all major platforms, this isn’t the case. If you need functionality like you describe, ship a native application via an app store. It’s a much better experience than web deve…

My business customers strongly disagree with you. They use my (internal) web application to do all their business needs and are very happy with it. A native application would work as well (of course) but a web application is much better for their needs and is much, much better to support on our end. It is cheaper to develop and support which makes them happy. It also is cross platform. My business customers don't have access to any app stores. It's not a simple web app either.

On my end I don't want to have to download an app to do all the things I want to do. I keep as few apps on my phone/computer as possible.

Not all software development is making cutting edge social phone apps.

Re: Safari is the new IE

#188

Post by josefresco »

Someone wrote: post #115
josefresco wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I built websites during that entire period. I saw the rise and fall of Netscape, the "dark ages" of browser development when Microsoft let IE rot - I witnessed the birth of Firefox and the re-ignition of the "browser wars" when Google launched Chrome, and Apple got serious with Safari by moving to WebKit. The author is right, the details aren't the same but the same attitude exists. The author is simply speaking up b…

"the re-ignition of the "browser wars" when Google launched Chrome, and Apple got serious with Safari by moving to WebKit" Moving to WebKit? Only if you count CyberDog, I guess. Safari was always WebKit based. Also, your phrasing could be read as if Chrome came before Safari, but Safari is from 2003 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safari_version_history ), Chrome from 2008 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Chrom…

My mistake, my comment was penned rather quickly and emotionally (typical). I should have verified my memory with actual homework, the revised timeline does not change my opinion ;)

Re: Safari is the new IE

#189

Post by JoeAltmaier »

wodenokoto wrote: post #33
gwbas1c wrote: post #11

The article misses the point. The browser is a document viewer, not an application delivery platform. Back in 2005 we all thought that web-based applications were going to take the world by storm, but now that we have slick application stores on all major platforms, this isn’t the case. If you need functionality like you describe, ship a native application via an app store. It’s a much better experience than web deve…

I don't fully agree. Apps like gmail and google maps are often preferred to their native alternatives on desktop. I have pretty much ditched native office suites in favor of google drive as well on my desktop system. And things like Facebook hasn't even considered native desktop implementations. So it is safe to say that the web is a great app delivery platform (at least on the desktop) and as such, I think it is com…

Have to parse that carefully. The web is a great delivery platform. But the apps ... not so much. They can be laggy, unresponsive, render poorly, double-process user events, and on and on. The apps are not great. In fact, only their mother could love them.

Re: Safari is the new IE

#190

Post by adamlett »

zamalek wrote: post #92
NietTim wrote: post #38

Nolan, I'm not familiar with what you do or have done, but have you ever tried to make a website back in the day? Ever tried to support IE6? 7? 8? IE literally broke the web. CSS rules which worked in every browser ever wouldn't work in IE. Entire webpages weren't formatting correctly, having to spend hours, days, on workarounds. Comparing Safari to IE is just wrong. Safari doesn't break the web, it 'just' lacks supp…

I had to do some work[1] with, basically, HTML4. Eventually I reached the stage whereby the feature worked in every other browser (IE8+, including Opera), using clean and completely hack-free code. In 3 days I had done my work. Then I tested it in Safari. Two weeks later I gave up and basically had to `if (Safari)`. I don't know if the code still has that, but it probably does. This wasn't anything 'lacking'. Sure, i…

> Then I tested it in Safari

(emphasis mine)

I use Chrome as my primary development browser and Safari and Firefox as my second and third choice. When I do get around to testing in IE 9+, it's almost an afterthought. Is it surprising then that IE is the browser that gives me the most trouble?

All browsers have quirks. It's inevitable when you have many competing implementations from companies that have different priorities. The browser you use the most is naturally the one whose quirks you will get used to.

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