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Safari is the new IE

nolanlawson.com

91–100 of 368 posts

Re: Safari is the new IE

#91
post #38

Nolan, I'm not familiar with what you do or have done, but have you ever tried to make a website back in the day? Ever tried to support IE6? 7? 8? IE literally broke the web. CSS rules which worked in every browser ever wouldn't work in IE. Entire webpages weren't formatting correctly, having to spend hours, days, on workarounds. Comparing Safari to IE is just wrong. Safari doesn't break the web, it 'just' lacks supp…

What rules that had been there for tens of years were broken by IE6? IE6 was the best browser available when it was released, and the web standards ecosystem was nothing like it is today.

I think the analogy is very clear. If you want to code like it's 2000, supporting IE6 is easy, because IE6 is a very good 2000 browser. If you want to code like it's 2010, supporting Safari is easy, because Safari is a very good 2010 browser. But in both cases, if you want to use any new features that have been standardized and are supported by other browsers, you're fucked.

The main difference I see is that IE6 didn't get any updates at all. Safari gets updates, but many new features are missing or broken.

EDIT: Another difference is that MS never blocked you from installing a better browser, but Apple does that on iOS. That policy is becoming increasingly ridiculous...

Re: Safari is the new IE

#92
post #38

Nolan, I'm not familiar with what you do or have done, but have you ever tried to make a website back in the day? Ever tried to support IE6? 7? 8? IE literally broke the web. CSS rules which worked in every browser ever wouldn't work in IE. Entire webpages weren't formatting correctly, having to spend hours, days, on workarounds. Comparing Safari to IE is just wrong. Safari doesn't break the web, it 'just' lacks supp…

I had to do some work[1] with, basically, HTML4. Eventually I reached the stage whereby the feature worked in every other browser (IE8+, including Opera), using clean and completely hack-free code. In 3 days I had done my work.

Then I tested it in Safari. Two weeks later I gave up and basically had to `if (Safari)`. I don't know if the code still has that, but it probably does. This wasn't anything 'lacking'. Sure, it was contenteditable-related but the fact remains that I found a consistent subset in every browser except Safari.

So, yes, Safari broke my web - and it wasn't something that was missing, it was something that behaved very differently compared to other browsers. I can't remember what specifically broke it, but even ~2 years ago I had a significantly better development experience with IE than Safari with no new HTML5 features in sight.

[1]: http://help.k2.com/onlinehelp/k2smartforms/userguide/1.0.6/c...

Re: Safari is the new IE

#94
post #38

Nolan, I'm not familiar with what you do or have done, but have you ever tried to make a website back in the day? Ever tried to support IE6? 7? 8? IE literally broke the web. CSS rules which worked in every browser ever wouldn't work in IE. Entire webpages weren't formatting correctly, having to spend hours, days, on workarounds. Comparing Safari to IE is just wrong. Safari doesn't break the web, it 'just' lacks supp…

I built websites during that entire period. I saw the rise and fall of Netscape, the "dark ages" of browser development when Microsoft let IE rot - I witnessed the birth of Firefox and the re-ignition of the "browser wars" when Google launched Chrome, and Apple got serious with Safari by moving to WebKit.

The author is right, the details aren't the same but the same attitude exists. The author is simply speaking up before the differences become extreme.

Microsoft didn't "break the web" they created their own web and then let it twist in the wind because they were pissed about the government beat down.

Apple didn't get their hand slapped, but they did build something so lucrative that evolving Safari became a smaller priority, which some would argue aligns well with their push to the App/closed ecosystem model.

Re: Safari is the new IE

#95
post #38

Nolan, I'm not familiar with what you do or have done, but have you ever tried to make a website back in the day? Ever tried to support IE6? 7? 8? IE literally broke the web. CSS rules which worked in every browser ever wouldn't work in IE. Entire webpages weren't formatting correctly, having to spend hours, days, on workarounds. Comparing Safari to IE is just wrong. Safari doesn't break the web, it 'just' lacks supp…

Nevermind clicks, got to get Twitter follower counts into the thousands!

Re: Safari is the new IE

#96
post #14

As a primarily web-based advertising company, Google benefits immensely from a more feature-packed web. So does Mozilla, both because they depend on ad revenue and because they are betting very heavily on the web as a platform. Even Microsoft is heavily invested in web technologies, not only because of Bing but also because HTML5 forms the backbone of Modern (Metro) UI. Apple, on the other hand, has no reason to want…

    Apple, on the other hand, has no reason to want the web 
    to flourish. They make money by selling hardware, and 
    by managing a closed ecosystem of apps and services 
    that revolve around said hardware.
You have the key thing correct: Apple makes money on hardware.

So it doesn't follow that they would want to stamp out or ignore the web. The web is a huge part of what customers use Macs and iOS devices for, and Apple makes the same amount of money on a piece of hardware whether you use it to browse the web or use the $0.00 Facebook app.

There's no denying that Apple wants you to buy into their ecosystem of apps: it helps bind you to their devices. But there's no incentive for them to extinguish the web.

    At least in the days of IE6, Microsoft didn't really care about 
    the web.
No. The web was directly opposite to Microsoft's goals. Microsoft made money on operating systems and applications. If the web "won" then you wouldn't need a Microsoft OS any more, and Microsoft would "lose."

Re: Safari is the new IE

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe on OSX, yes. On Windows on my PC, basically every browser beats Safari on my retina MBP if it comes to speed.

Apple has stopped supporting Safari on Windows. SO yes, you are using Safari 5.0, from over 2 and a half years ago...of course every other browser will beat it.

I might be mistaken but I read the parent as saying that each browser on his windows pc is faster than safari on his mbp.

Re: Safari is the new IE

#98
Uh...

Comparing a webkit-based browser of any kind to the agony of supporting something like IE6 back in the day is like comparing a paper cut to a stab wound.

Nice clickbait title, though, got you to #1, aren't you proud. :P

Re: Safari is the new IE

#99
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but the problems Safari has on mobile aren't going to be fixed by implementing IndexedDB; and honestly the WebSQL vs IndexedDB argument is irrelevant to most people: 95% of web developers will just use a framework that abstracts the differences. And I wouldn't claim that mobile Chrome is a whole lot better on this front, even (or especially) on Android. The limitations of mobile CPUs combined with higher user…

Have fun abstracting the difference between a relational database and a NoSQL database! That will only work for trivial applications.

There are already abstractions that work over both and work for nontrivial apps, including, IIRC, an indexedDB polyfill using WebSQL.

Going the other way might be harder, but every rdbms is, itself, an abstraction over a nonrelational storage system of some kind, so it's clearly not impossible.

Re: Safari is the new IE

#100
post #14

As a primarily web-based advertising company, Google benefits immensely from a more feature-packed web. So does Mozilla, both because they depend on ad revenue and because they are betting very heavily on the web as a platform. Even Microsoft is heavily invested in web technologies, not only because of Bing but also because HTML5 forms the backbone of Modern (Metro) UI. Apple, on the other hand, has no reason to want…

If Apple really wanted to make Web Apps feel like a second class citizen, they wouldn't be adding Force Touch, custom AirPlay control support and Picture In Picture support to the upcoming version of Safari. Those are deep, native app level features that aren't even Web standards yet.

I assume Apple is underinvesting in safari simply because they have bigger fish to fry, and they are notoriously understaffed with competent engineers (or have bad project management).

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