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Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

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Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#181

Post by rmxt »

paulhauggis wrote: post #155
pdabbadabba wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If today's confederacy enthusiasts disagree, then it means the culture doesn't represent slavery. What a symbol represents is not determined solely (or even primarily) by the intent of the person displaying it. The swastika on my forehead is a symbol of love and peace. How could you be offended? > The confederate flag doesn't exist for the sole purpose of slavery. The Confederacy surely did exist primarily to promo…

"The swastika on my forehead is a symbol of love and peace. How could you be offended?" If it's turned a specific way, it is the Nazi symbol. In Asia for instance (where I lived and studied for 5+ years), you will see the symbol all over the place. It is still a Buddhist peace sign in many other parts of the world and in fact, I have purchased multiple items online (and on Amazon) with the symbol on it. I know plenty…

Primarily states' rights or primarily slavery, that "peculiar institution"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_Speech

It's a bit of historical revisionism to suggest that slavery wasn't the main driving cause of the rebellion, and ultimately the treason, committed by those ruling in the South. It was the choice of slavery over patriotism back when the states seceded then, and it's ever more abhorrent now to think one should wave the Confederate flag as some nod towards a "culture" that was nothing more than a wrapper around the terrible institution of slavery.

Now, I'm not blaming all of the people in the South. Surely the soldiers that fought and died weren't the same ones making the decisions and state house speeches. But now that we are generations removed and have the opportunity to choose the legacy that we promote? Why choose a legacy that encourages the romanticization of a culture that supported the inferiority of one race compared to another?

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#182

Post by xbryanx »

mason240 wrote: post #179
xbryanx wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure how you got that from my comment.

>Regardless of what you think about the current reactions, they are not solely the result of someone feeling bad. They are the reactions to the murder of [3000] innocent people by a [group of Islamists] professing [the need to eradicate nonbelievers]. Now, whether this justifies this action or not is a different matter.

Yep, which is why this hypothetical comment would also be an appropriate retort to someone referring to the Sept 11th attacks as "somebody felt bad." As I'd hoped I made clear, I wasn't suggesting Apple's reaction was appropriate or inappropriate, just that isn't simply about feelings.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#183

Post by claudius »

Mithaldu wrote: post #73
HarryHirsch wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the German courts are doing is enforcing the taboo on swastikas and anything else H*tler-related. I can understand why they are doing it and would like them to continue.

You're being extremely vague to the point of making your comment a non-sequitur. Are you agreeing with the law exactly as it is written? (I am.) Are you agreeing with the interpretation of the law as it applies to computer games? (I don't.) Do you think computer games should never be allowed to contain historical symbols of forbidden groups? (I don't.) Do you think computer games should be allowed the usage if the us…

> Do you think computer games should never be allowed to contain historical symbols of forbidden groups?

It depends on the context. The computer game should not facilitate identification with Nazism (e.g. by the player flying that flag in a RTS or being a member of it in an FPS) or downplay the disastrous results of Nazism. So potentially I would be okay with a Wolfenstein-like game where the player operates strictly against these powers/symbols, but doing this consequently in online multi-player games seems difficult.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#184

Post by semi-extrinsic »

nmrm2 wrote: post #118
semi-extrinsic wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>People DO associate certain high-quality Apps with the iPhone [Citation needed]

I can't give you hard data. But anecdotally, most people I know who own an iPhone and aren't Apple devouts chose it because "the software is better". I assume the typical consumer lumps Apps in with OS, because I doubt they are making purchasing decisions based upon the quality of the OS kernel or the quality of the background processes...

Acoording to statistics like this [1], smartphone users are highly likely to stay with whatever they are used to. Thus it follows that their impression that "the software is better" is based on outdated information.

[1]. http://images.techhive.com/images/idge/imported/article/ctw/...

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#185

Post by Mithaldu »

claudius wrote: post #183
Mithaldu wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're being extremely vague to the point of making your comment a non-sequitur. Are you agreeing with the law exactly as it is written? (I am.) Are you agreeing with the interpretation of the law as it applies to computer games? (I don't.) Do you think computer games should never be allowed to contain historical symbols of forbidden groups? (I don't.) Do you think computer games should be allowed the usage if the us…

> Do you think computer games should never be allowed to contain historical symbols of forbidden groups? It depends on the context. The computer game should not facilitate identification with Nazism (e.g. by the player flying that flag in a RTS or being a member of it in an FPS) or downplay the disastrous results of Nazism. So potentially I would be okay with a Wolfenstein-like game where the player operates strictly…

> It depends on the context.

Exactly that is my point. :)

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#186

Post by solveforall »

I understand that the Confederate flag evokes strong, negative reactions from black people, as it probably should. So it may be disturbing to see the flag while browsing the App Store, and this is something Apple justifiably would want to prevent, and they have the right to do so. But to ban the display of a Confederate flag within a Civil War game that you have intentionally downloaded seems ludicrous. Games like this seem quite educational and to strip them of historical accuracy for the sake of political correctness is a real shame.

I feel this is another sign that we are headed towards a culture that does not tolerate anything that might offend anyone, an intolerance of intolerance.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#187

Post by MBCook »

solveforall wrote: post #186

I understand that the Confederate flag evokes strong, negative reactions from black people, as it probably should. So it may be disturbing to see the flag while browsing the App Store, and this is something Apple justifiably would want to prevent, and they have the right to do so. But to ban the display of a Confederate flag within a Civil War game that you have intentionally downloaded seems ludicrous. Games like th…

Apple will change directions on this and fix the historical games and such that are taken down, they always do. It will probably be a non-issue within a week or two.

This is just the quickest, laziest, and a relatively ham-fisted way to get rid of the actually problematic apps, so that's what they did. Sadly thats kinda status-quo for Apple dealing with this kind of stuff.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#188

Post by MBCook »

onewaystreet wrote: post #95
mladenkovacevic wrote: post #78

The scariest thing is how fast sweeping and unanimous these acts of compliance are. It's like these companies just woke up suddenly, had a conference call and without a hint of discussion, analysis or feedback started enforcing moral revisionism. It reeks of dishonest, cheap PR. What's next on the agenda? The saddest part is that this has totally taken over the discussion of shootings in North Carolina. US is unique…

Because gun control is pretty much dead in the US. If 20 children being killed in the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting wasn't enough to pass new legislation, 9 adults certainly wouldn't be. The flag has become an issue so politicians can be seen "doing something."

Yeah. No need to discus gun control, the issue with SC is clearly racism.

And how do we get rid of racism? Remove the symbol. We'll get rid of the symbol and the racism will be fixed.

We took action! We did something! It's solved! Time to move on. What's the point in discussing complicated issues of housing development or law enforcement and making changes that might not have a positive and noticeable effect for a generation or two?

It's good we did something now. Now it's solved.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#189

Post by Mithaldu »

BonsaiDen wrote: post #126
kuschku wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they are not: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9777948

They are. Games are not recognized as art here in Germany, so they do not get the same treatment as movies or books and have to remove the references. International releases of these games are actually illegal in Germany and owning them is an indictable act, although actual criminal charges are very rare (since there's hardly a way of controlling the digital distribution).

You're all right and wrong. They are in a quantum state. The youth protection agency thinks games are not art and as such wishes to not allow them. However the matter has never been in front of a legal court, and until that is done, they are only censored out or pro-active fear, not because they're actually illegal.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#190

Post by pdabbadabba »

melling wrote: post #180
pdabbadabba wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. More people need to know these things. Here is another one: "Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great…

Jefferson owned slaves. While we're cleaning up our history, maybe it's time to tear down the Jefferson Memorial? http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/culture/la-et-cm-t... --- CNN anchor Ashleigh Banfield this week questioned whether the Jefferson Memorial should be taken down because Jefferson owned slaves. "There is a monument to him in the capital city of the United States. No one ever asks for that to come…

It's an interesting and provocative idea, which I appreciate. But I think a little perspective is in order. Jefferson owned slaves. The confederacy was a nation (or collection of rebel U.S. states, or both, depending on who you ask) founded explicitly on the belief that people of African descent are inferior, that it is their natural and proper condition to be owned by people of European descent, and the (literally) militant defense of the institution of slavery which lead to the deaths of 600,000 people (to say nothing of other ongoing social ills). Both are abhorrent. But the latter is much worse.

Jefferson, unlike most confederate figures and institutions, also made important philosophical contributions to the founding ideology of our nation (besides slavery). So, while I'm all for remembering Jefferson's flaws, I think his legacy is, at worse, far more complicated (and better) than that of the Confederacy, confederate symbols, and confederate leaders.

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