Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Lies Employers Use to Get You to Work with Them

linkedin.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 83 posts

Re: Lies Employers Use to Get You to Work with Them

#71

Post by slantyyz »

fredkbloggs wrote: post #54
slantyyz wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> They're not lies: they just mean nothing. Everything in the article's list is a basically gratuitous promise. Things change -- the economy, the financial performance of the company, management, etc. Any change can be justification to nullify one or more of those promises. The easy way to see if the hiring company is lying? Ask them to put everything in the contract, and put --numbers-- where applicable (30 days of…

No one is going to put that stuff in a contract unless it's a senior management position. The company cares much less about hiring you, no matter who you are, than about capping its liability. If you do manage to get such terms written in, you can bet that the company will still have no obligation to you as it can simply terminate the contract at any time without compensation. Even in a strong market, there are plent…

> No one is going to put that stuff in a contract unless it's a senior management position.

Of course they won't.

In all fairness, I don't think anyone who has been around the block would be tricked by any of the items in the list, but I'm sure a lot of less experienced job hunters could be.

SO, if you are a person who weighs a decision on these gratuitous promises what is the best course of action to see if the prospective employer is lying?

Probably to ask for all that stuff spelled out in detail in the employment contract.

Sure, you may not get hired for the reasons you cited, but it'll become pretty clear that those promises were empty too, and you'll handle the next opportunity differently.

Re: Lies Employers Use to Get You to Work with Them

#72

Post by Aloisius »

jackmaney wrote: post #69
fredkbloggs wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The essence of the modern employment contract is that we keep showing up and doing more or less what we're told, and you keep the paychecks coming until doing so would jeopardize senior management pay, at which point you kick us to the curb with nothing. Anyone on either side of the table expecting something else is delusional. > I don't want to hire anyone who would be unhappy working for me. Then you're not going t…

I have no idea why you got downvoted. I simply don't believe that there is a single employer out there who would not lie to their employees. And your question to Aloisius is excellent: what's in it for us?

I would think the possibility of not being miserable for a third of your life would be more than enough incentive.

I suppose though if you're worldview is that you're destined to be nothing but a cog in the meat grinder of humanity, then that must sound like a pipe dream. And frankly, it doesn't sound like it would be possible for one to ever be happy even in a good environment with that kind of deeply cynical worldview.

Re: Lies Employers Use to Get You to Work with Them

#73

Post by jackmaney »

Aloisius wrote: post #72
jackmaney wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea why you got downvoted. I simply don't believe that there is a single employer out there who would not lie to their employees. And your question to Aloisius is excellent: what's in it for us?

I would think the possibility of not being miserable for a third of your life would be more than enough incentive. I suppose though if you're worldview is that you're destined to be nothing but a cog in the meat grinder of humanity, then that must sound like a pipe dream. And frankly, it doesn't sound like it would be possible for one to ever be happy even in a good environment with that kind of deeply cynical worldv…

> I would think the possibility of not being miserable for a third of your life would be more than enough incentive.

So, your argument essentially boils down to "tell me what I want to know or I'll make your work life a living hell."

Please tell me the name of your employer. I don't ever want to work at the same company as you (or, at the very least, I don't want to be on the same org chart as you).

Re: Lies Employers Use to Get You to Work with Them

#74

Post by fredkbloggs »

Aloisius wrote: post #72
jackmaney wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea why you got downvoted. I simply don't believe that there is a single employer out there who would not lie to their employees. And your question to Aloisius is excellent: what's in it for us?

I would think the possibility of not being miserable for a third of your life would be more than enough incentive. I suppose though if you're worldview is that you're destined to be nothing but a cog in the meat grinder of humanity, then that must sound like a pipe dream. And frankly, it doesn't sound like it would be possible for one to ever be happy even in a good environment with that kind of deeply cynical worldv…

There's nothing cynical about it. Experienced candidates know what corporations are and how they work, and they know that employment is a business relationship. Its purpose is not to make either side "happy" but to exchange value for value on agreed terms. It is not a family relationship, friendship, or psychologist-patient relationship. In that context, your question to candidates is out of line. Answering it nontrivially helps you but not them; it gives you more leverage, and more opportunities to make promises you cannot or will not keep. Your argument may be that you wouldn't do that, but how is the candidate to know? They don't know you; you just met. The sensible thing to do is to keep one's cards well hidden.

Re: Lies Employers Use to Get You to Work with Them

#75

Post by Aloisius »

jackmaney wrote: post #73
Aloisius wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would think the possibility of not being miserable for a third of your life would be more than enough incentive. I suppose though if you're worldview is that you're destined to be nothing but a cog in the meat grinder of humanity, then that must sound like a pipe dream. And frankly, it doesn't sound like it would be possible for one to ever be happy even in a good environment with that kind of deeply cynical worldv…

> I would think the possibility of not being miserable for a third of your life would be more than enough incentive. So, your argument essentially boils down to "tell me what I want to know or I'll make your work life a living hell." Please tell me the name of your employer. I don't ever want to work at the same company as you (or, at the very least, I don't want to be on the same org chart as you).

No. No that's not what I'm saying at all.

I'm saying that unless you're honest during the interview about what you need out of a job, you'll end up joining companies that will make you miserable because they are fundamentally a bad fit for you.

Re: Lies Employers Use to Get You to Work with Them

#76

Post by toothbrush »

carsongross wrote: post #16
angelbob wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you see in contrast to "the west"? I'm just curious what you're comparing the US (and possibly Western Europe) to. I don't see China as being a tremendously high-trust social environment, for instance.

I agree regarding China, and I think it will end up limiting economic growth there once they get past the industrialization bump. (I believe they are past it.) I contrast the west with, for example, Russia, which has a very intelligent work-force and extensive natural resources, but has been unable to break out of the corruption and lack of trust endemic to their culture. India is another example: there is no reason…

Out of curiosity, do you see any specific countries as having a generally non-intelligent workforce? If not, why mention it specifically for Russia and India?

Re: Lies Employers Use to Get You to Work with Them

#77

Post by yourapostasy »

carsongross wrote: post #4

This is just another instance of western societies devolving from a high-trust environment into a low-trust environment. In the short term, cheating in the prisoners dilemma of social trust is beneficial for the cheater, but in the long run it ends up resulting in lower economic growth, making everyone poorer. Social trust is the key to economic growth (by allowing de-risked specialization) and political liberty (by…

Excellent point. Beyond the high- versus low-trust gradient you pointed out is the time element. Our ongoing degeneration into a low-trust state is highly corrosive and even regressive to develop complex, multifaceted economic structures, which differentiate themselves from simpler structures by their exhibited time preferences.

When you select for low-trust options in a previously high-trust environment, you also select for shorter timeframes of activity. Those shorter timeframes directly manifest as fewer options; there simply isn't enough time to let beneficial compounding effects ramp up and hence open up more options by supplying more per unit resources over time. The cognitive load to manage these shorter timeframe activities also goes up per unit returned equity/resources/margin versus a longer timeframe; I wouldn't be surprised if it goes up non-linearly in most cases. None of these effects are reported upon, tracked, or even detected in accounting systems today, except at terminal end stages. The current dominant business culture is yield chasing with this behavior, and that has historically ended poorly.

Re: Lies Employers Use to Get You to Work with Them

#78

Post by wolfgke »

hwstar wrote: post #67
wolfgke wrote: post #65

Why don't you ensure that all the promises simply written down in the employment agreement, so that in case that you are betrayed you have a lever (on the other hand: If the employer are not willing to write it into the employment agreement, there is a chance that he will try to cheat you sooner or later).

What employment agreement? In the US most everyone is employed "at-will" which means you or your employer can terminate the employment relationship for any reason whatsoever. It's usually only C-level executives which have employment agreements in the US.

I knew that the US have no period of notice for employments (and thus the employment can be canceled at about anytime). But I wasn't aware that there are usually no employment agreements in the US.

Re: Lies Employers Use to Get You to Work with Them

#79

Post by jackmaney »

Aloisius wrote: post #75
jackmaney wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would think the possibility of not being miserable for a third of your life would be more than enough incentive. So, your argument essentially boils down to "tell me what I want to know or I'll make your work life a living hell." Please tell me the name of your employer. I don't ever want to work at the same company as you (or, at the very least, I don't want to be on the same org chart as you).

No. No that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that unless you're honest during the interview about what you need out of a job, you'll end up joining companies that will make you miserable because they are fundamentally a bad fit for you.

Ah yes, the old "bad fit" chestnut. What employers never mention, however, is that when candidates are foolish enough to open up about what they want, they're often pushed away as "not a good fit for the company/team".

Re: Lies Employers Use to Get You to Work with Them

#80

Post by coldcode »

dragonwriter wrote: post #55
s73v3r wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They still allow you to judge the capability of those working on them. And in the US at least, you're not supposed to have interns working on something you'd otherwise have a regular, full time employee on. The whole keeping companies from replacing employees with cheap interns thing.

To the extent that approximates a real restriction, it applies specifically to unpaid interns.

The company paid the interns, even the ones that did nothing all that useful.
Post reply on HN