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Lies Employers Use to Get You to Work with Them

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Re: Lies Employers Use to Get You to Work with Them

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Internships actually do a better job here. Some BigCorps are treating summer college student jobs as a 90-day interview process. When done right, the student works with an actual team on an actual product. Everybody gets a good, long look at one another.

I worked at a company that took 90 interns per summer. All of them outside of our mobile team did nothing but fake intern projects. We made ours do actual product work that shipped; the rest of the interns were very jealous. We made offers to three and one accepted, the other two went on to graduate degrees.

How are those "fake projects" not a gigantic waste of everybody's time? We put our interns to work - either embedded on product teams, or working with our architecture/R&D teams on new technology. I think the interns generally enjoy the experience and we try to hire the best of them back after graduation.

Re: Lies Employers Use to Get You to Work with Them

#42
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The melting pot idea's been thrown out? That's news to me.

In the melting pot metaphor each new wave joins the homogenized culture -- adding something to it, but also losing what made them distinctive. In the salad bowl metaphor, each wave keeps what makes them distinctive while physically mixing with all the other groups.

To give you a concrete example of how this has changed, my mother was born in the mid-30s to a Cajun (French in Louisiana, by way of "Arcadia" in Canada) family, and prior to attending the public school system spoke no English. And English was all that was spoken at school, and not learning it was not an option.

Compare to bilingual education.

Re: Lies Employers Use to Get You to Work with Them

#43
post #3

My new manager just admitted to me a couple weeks back that my old manager (who is his manager now) straight up lied to me to get me in the door. He lied about how quickly my salary would increase. They told me that every six months salary is generally increased. Now that six months has come, he tells me that it is very rare for an increase mid-year.

I got the same bait & switch; hired as a contractor "consultant" for 60/hr and then got a job offer for 70k but the manager said it's possible to go up to 90k. I assumed I'd be starting at 80k because I don't see any opportunity for advancement here. How do you get to 90k if there's no chance of moving up?

Worse still is the fact that the salary/performance review comes up in a few weeks and I started in January. Getting the job offer at all apparently counts as the performance review so to get a salary increase or title upgrade I effectively have to wait 1.5 years.

Re: Lies Employers Use to Get You to Work with Them

#44
post #32
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cultural diversity and high-trust are somewhat at odds with one another, because one of the very ways that cultures are diverse is the parameters of the trust they expect. Even two high-trust cultures can interact poorly with each other when the contract is too different. Take the innocuous example of tipping. In one culture, waiters are tipped X%, in another, it's just in the food prices. Clearly, neither is absolut…

The melting pot idea's been thrown out? That's news to me.

Oh, yes. The current culturally-dominant thinking in the US is that we should let cultures fully manifest without judgment however they like, forming a beautiful tapestry of diversity, and that the "melting pot" is culturally imperialistic because it erases that tapestry.

Which sounds really nice if you don't think about the details, but gets problematic when you start considering them. Again, even leaving aside the reality of widely differing moral/value judgments and sticking to things we can all be more-or-less be rational about like tipping parameters, some culture is going to have to "win" for this to work smoothly. So, you know, once you start thinking about it this way and start thinking about the concrete details of how people interact within cultures, it completely ceases to be surprising that cultures still physically/geographically self-segregate even within the beautiful tapestry of diversity... how could it be otherwise? It's very challenging to try to go out into the world and interact with the intersection of all possible cultural rules (that is, the things agreed upon by all cultures universally), because the intersection is really quite small when it comes to cultural protocols for trade and such. You could spend hours putting together lists of things that are mandatory in one culture, and verboten in another. For instance, this recently went by on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9684152 Even if both you and the other person know all the possible protocols, how do you negotiate which you're going to use, when for most people these are really ingrained assumptions below the conscious perception? (And would not this metaprotocol have to come from somewhere and be some form of imposition?)

And to be clear, I mostly mean this post as food for thought, rather than a clear and confident claim of a specific opinion. (Yes, I did express a preference in my previous message, but I'm trying to go more food-for-thought here.) I've also carefully phrased this in terms of "cultures" and not "ethnicities", as in the context I'm discussing, there's only a correlation between the two, not direct causation, and adding in "ethnicities" can just end up clouding our thinking. You get these issues when interacting between countries and stuff too, which is why it's food for thought in general and not a specific attack. It's one of those things where even a smart person can initially think it's a set of very easy problems to solve if you think about it only at a high level, but when you start getting into the details quickly explodes in complexity. Humans are irreducibly interesting!

Re: Lies Employers Use to Get You to Work with Them

#45
post #13
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Start by asking, "who would my manager be?" or "who would my team be?" If you're not being interviewed by anybody who will be on your prospective team, that's already a red flag. You should be talking to your future coworkers (and maybe others, sure) and you should know which ones they are.

Oh I understand that. To be more precise: Let's say I will be working on a team of 5 people. They send the manager and the smartest guy and things look great, but how do I gauge the skill level of the people who aren't there along with the skill level of other teams. For example, maybe my team is great, but I'll be working with other teams (infra guys, networking guys, legacy systems guys, whatever) who are obstructi…

One good gauge of a question would be: "how long does it take to get a new VM?" "And how long before the team has software installed?"

This will hint at the bureaucracy behind the scenes if they answer honestly.

The only other way is to know people either on those teams or that have worked with those folks before and essentially do "reference checks" but in reverse on your prospective employer.

Re: Lies Employers Use to Get You to Work with Them

#46
post #28

This is just another instance of western societies devolving from a high-trust environment into a low-trust environment. In the short term, cheating in the prisoners dilemma of social trust is beneficial for the cheater, but in the long run it ends up resulting in lower economic growth, making everyone poorer. Social trust is the key to economic growth (by allowing de-risked specialization) and political liberty (by…

Cultural diversity and high-trust are somewhat at odds with one another, because one of the very ways that cultures are diverse is the parameters of the trust they expect. Even two high-trust cultures can interact poorly with each other when the contract is too different. Take the innocuous example of tipping. In one culture, waiters are tipped X%, in another, it's just in the food prices. Clearly, neither is absolut…

Social scientist Robert Putnam discovered this in hard data, although he didn't write up the results until 5 years after publishing the data: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_D._Putnam#Diversity_and...

Re: Lies Employers Use to Get You to Work with Them

#47

I don't want to hire anyone who would be unhappy working for me. Lying to someone about what their life would be like working at the company seems totally counterproductive to that goal. I do appreciate it when a candidate has a list of questions related to things that are important to them. In my experience though, that is exceedingly rare - at least with engineers. I'm lucky to be asked basic questions like what ti…

The essence of the modern employment contract is that we keep showing up and doing more or less what we're told, and you keep the paychecks coming until doing so would jeopardize senior management pay, at which point you kick us to the curb with nothing. Anyone on either side of the table expecting something else is delusional.

> I don't want to hire anyone who would be unhappy working for me.

Then you're not going to hire anyone, your empire will stagnate or shrink, and you will not be promoted into senior management. At some point you will be kicked to the curb.

Lying enables you to hire people who might otherwise be unavailable or much more expensive. When the labor market is weak, this isn't very important, but in a strong labor market it can be the difference between growing your organization and losing it to attrition. Assuming you're not willing/able to pay more than your competition (no one is), lying to candidates is going to be among your top tactics. By the time they both know they've been lied to and are upset enough to want to do anything about it, they'll have kids and a mortgage, or there will be another recession, or some other circumstance will trap them. They're not happy, but you are: by growing your team, you've earned a promotion to director.

Sure, your hires are less productive than starry-eyed believers, but there aren't enough of the latter to staff a giant corporation (or even a medium-sized one), and senior management pay is based primarily on the size of one's empire. There's no point in a staffing policy that limits empire growth. A giant company, even a very inefficient one, pays senior managers far more in absolute terms than a smaller, more profitable one. Therefore it's in the interests of the senior managers to encourage hiring as many people as possible as long as they're cheap, regardless of whether they're happy or productive (and don't worry, if business is bad, they can be kicked to the curb). As a line manager, it's in your interest to go along with this no matter what it takes, because that's how you climb the ladder.

> I do appreciate it when a candidate has a list of questions related to things that are important to them. In my experience though, that is exceedingly rare - at least with engineers.

It's more that there's little point in asking because the assumption is that you will lie. At best, even honest answers have a very short shelf life; the experienced candidate assumes that conditions will change quickly and for the worse. Most importantly of all, the candidate knows he or she will have no recourse if conditions are not as advertized, regardless of the reason. That makes the answers non-actionable, and thus the questions a waste of time.

> Usually I have to probe into their past job history to try to figure out what is important to them and doing that in an hour is extremely difficult

We don't tell you because we know you don't care. People have been getting a lot smarter about the employer-employee relationship over the past decade or two. A corporation exists primarily for the benefit of senior managers: it gives them a place to compete with one another, engage in cutthroat politics, try out pet theories about business and management, and gives them the lion's share of the business's profits for little or no work. It does not exist for the benefit of the rank and file, customers, or shareholders. Few people are so foolish as to expect anything but misery and insecurity as a member of the rank and file. Why give you information you can use against us later? Put another way, what's in it for us?

Re: Lies Employers Use to Get You to Work with Them

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High-trust and low-trust understate the severity of the phase change, which is more accurately described as a shift from trust-density to trust-sparsity. You go from a state where people spawn with the "bozo bit" off to one where they spawn with it on. You get a completely different political dynamic when that happens. Obviously, trust has varying degrees and context. In Japan, you can leave your laptop at a cafe; in…

> CS graduates from MIT and Stanford could be expected to justify hours of their time in "Scrum ceremonies" (which means that they aren't trusted, which means that their credentialing institutions and work experiences aren't trusted). Even average programmers in the bowels of Fortune 500's IT organizations had more autonomy than the typical "Agile" programmer today. If that's been your experience with Agile, you've h…

"Seriously, stand-up isn't supposed to be about accounting for your time"

And yet, in most places, it devolves into just that.

"In my (very positive) experience, stand-up is about maintaining situational awareness in the team."

And how could this not be more easily done with bug trackers and status emails?

"it's an opportunity to pick the collective brain and gain some clarity / help with what you're doing."

Most people don't pay attention to other's updates; especially updates that they know aren't relevant to what they're working on.

Re: Lies Employers Use to Get You to Work with Them

#50
post #20
post #3

My new manager just admitted to me a couple weeks back that my old manager (who is his manager now) straight up lied to me to get me in the door. He lied about how quickly my salary would increase. They told me that every six months salary is generally increased. Now that six months has come, he tells me that it is very rare for an increase mid-year.

If it isn't in writing, it doesn't count. Heck, in writing doesn't count for much if it isn't part of a contract.

Most contracts (at least in the US) can be terminated by the employer at will with no further obligation to the employee. The only terms that are meaningful are those that obligate the employer to payment unconditionally, or upon termination.
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