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Going undercover as a sex worker

aljazeera.com

181–190 of 236 posts

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#181
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really like your story breakdown here. Those are three pretty clear contributors to the overall forced sex trade story. But I feel like there is one more story that is much less obvious. The three stories you identify reside on the supply side of the issue. On the demand side I feel there is a story about how our social expectations of monogamy contribute to the demand for prostitution. How men in sexless monogamou…

Or perhaps if they are in a marriage that restricts a resource that isn't supplying enough of that resource, then the marriage should be reexamined. Marriage is a contract, if you don't like the terms you agreed to, attempt to change the contract, not to cheat it. It's the same for sex as it is for anything else.

> Or perhaps if they are in a marriage that restricts a resource that isn't supplying enough of that resource, then the marriage should be reexamined.

There's a lot of social pressure against this because of the stigma associated with divorce.

> Marriage is a contract, if you don't like the terms you agreed to, attempt to change the contract, not to cheat it.

This is pretty much what I'm saying. The problem is that people are usually woefully naive and uninformed when they enter a marriage contract. Maybe we need to re-examine the societal default for marriage contracts...specifically the portion about monogamy / sexual exclusivity.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#182
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Human trafficking is, essentially, modern slavery. Almost all "human trafficking" is willing migrants paying someone to help them cross a border (into US, EU, etc).

Sure about that? I thought the term refers to people who are brought against their will or by lie to another country. Definition from google: the illegal movement of people, typically for the purposes of forced labour or commercial sexual exploitation.

Smuggling immigrants across a border is still "the illegal movement of people" and counted in the trumped up "human trafficking" statistics that are bandied about.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#183
post #30
post #13

What makes me very uncomfortable is that are enough men that not only not care about, but actually enjoy rape to make it a huge market. This is not something that happens "between two consenting adults". If you read the article you'll see that there is no way in hell that they don't know what they are participating in. In fact many seek out the worst treated girls. There looks to me that there are more than one type…

The sad truth is that rape (like many disturbing behaviours including murder and child abuse) is entirely natural, it's not actually aberrant behaviour. Of course we're capable of recognizing it as harmful behaviour we would rather not see happen, but that's a matter of "ought" not "is". I think the best bet at preventing rape is education and empathy (violence becomes more difficult if you can relate to your victim)…

I applaud the courageous comment. Everyone should take a moment out of their day from time to time to take a whack at the idea that natural equals good.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, whenever I see someone intentionally all-capsing and misspelling with "TEH THIS" and "TEH THAT", to me it reeks of childish ridicule. That does not lend the parody any credibility. Satire is one thing, but meme-trolling is another. I don't think anyone is claiming that Group A actually can kill everyone they oppose. The problem is that they want to, and that they are trying to, and that before all is said and…

You're right, my meme-trolling was a bit childish. However I have read some of Britain First's facebook pages and the comments there are hateful, vitriolic and most of the time barely literate. I actually agree with most of what you said here. I believe that Islam does have some serious structural problems, along with many other religions. Muslim friends say that indeed the Quran is pretty transparently calling for n…

Ok, thanks for explaining that. I briefly glanced at Britain First's own web site (not their Facebook page), and while "nationalism" sounds a bit dangerous to me, the specific policies they advocate don't sound evil to me. On the contrary, they advocate things like a bill of rights to protect people, and enforcing existing laws. No doubt, people who agree with some of their goals, but for different, more hateful reasons, will coalesce around them and post comments on Facebook.

I'm still not making any claims about the organization one way or the other, but my point is just that, if your opinion of them is based upon comments posted by individuals on their Facebook group page, that doesn't seem fair.

It's good that there are some Muslims who are admitting that their scriptures are advocating these evil actions. I hope that they are being sincere and seeking the truth. But their scriptures also advocate deceiving opponents for the sake of advancing the cause. This is not a popular thing to talk about, because it sounds like calling all Muslims liars--which I am not doing. But it's a simple fact that the command exists. And this needs to be dealt with just as much as the other commands in it.

Yes, the Catholic church has perpetrated much evil over its history. I don't defend it at all. However, it's still important to distinguish between what some Catholic clergy have done, what an average Catholic would do, and what the Catholic scriptures call for and condemn. That child abuse that some Catholic clergy have committed is condemned in their own texts. So to compare the Catholic church's abuses (especially its recent ones) and recent jihadist terrorist acts is a serious case of apples-and-oranges. It's misleading.

> I believe the way to counter "lumping people together, generalizing and stereotyping" or othering is precisely to point out the flaws in logic and call it bigotry and hatred when you see it.

I think you have to be very careful when trying to mix claims of logical analysis with accusations of bigotry and hatred. Maybe it's like setting off sparks around flammable liquids: doing it in a controlled environment like an engine can result in useful work; but doing it carelessly results in explosions and harm. It's just too easy to call one side ugly names instead of calmly refuting arguments. And once one person does it, other people pile on, and before you know it, one side is being drowned out by baseless accusations and childish name-calling. Besides that, it assumes that one side knows what is in the other's heart and mind, what their motivation and unstated goals are.

I think, if you look throughout history, most of the evil and violence and war and death comes, not from being logical, but from causing bigotry and hatred by being bigoted and hateful, by calling others ugly names, accusing them of being innately evil, and accusing them of thinking and desiring things which they do not.

And unfortunately, the anonymity provided by the Internet allows such behavior to flourish in pockets here and there. It takes more effort to call for calm and reason and thoughtfulness than it does to drown it out with name-calling and mob-stirring.

Well, anyway, thanks for being reasonable and actually discussing, rather than calling for censorship and downvoting, like some here have done.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#185
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>human slavery does happen, but its not the default case. Which country are you talking about? I can imagine this being true in countries like the Netherlands, where state and police actively regulates and monitors it (instead of simple allowing it and ignoring it), but from the preponderance of media coverage and anecdotes i do indeed think that the majority of women in this industry worldwide are exploited in some…

"I read it on HN, so it must be true?" My wife did her master's thesis on sex workers in the Philippines. TL;DR - for the vast majority of female sex workers in that country, it is an economic CHOICE. The mostly single mothers felt it was their best opportunity to earn an income capable of supporting their families. Those with agendas (especially those who are after your donations) are always the ones who speak the l…

Well, not just HN but i get the point.

That does raise a lot of interesting questions. How did they get into the trade ? - This is usually where the primary exploitation happens. After that, it is not uncommon for women to stay within the industry by choice, (because they don't know how to do anything else, they have debts to pay, shame/stigma and trouble reintegrating with society and family after being outcast). Who are the fathers of the children - Are they from an actual relationship or are they consequences of the trade? Of course, all my statements are primarily from media coverage or anecdotal in nature. I don't know how things are in the Phillipines. Could you share a link to the paper? Might be a good counter-point on the matter which people can cite.

edit : typos

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of muddy water here. Self-selection for one. Who knows whether the folks going into the business are already selected for an mtbf of 50? 'Desperate and taken advantage of' is a big category, and those folks often come to no great end. Its not a unique feature of this industry - heck even WalMart employees fit there. Cause and effect might be getting confused here.

However, Walmart employers do not offer their potential addict employees drugs before they go to work. They don't have them participate in labor that frequently compromises their ability to work with no effort to support them when this happens. The employees of Walmart have actual worker's rights and nearly universal standards of employment in this country, while Pornography, especially amateur pornography, has none…

You're getting a specific subset of people who are willing to do Pornography, most notably people who are desperate, potentially addicted/suicidal young women.

A common trope, but highly dubious. The majority of women who enter pornography come from relatively stable or average backgrounds, and go in there through their own volition. Quite ironically, the more underground subcultures like S/M are disproportionate examples of this. Regular women who have taken up modeling and promote themselves in the scene, accepting it as their lifestyle.

It should be noted that "porn stars" and plain old "models" intersect a lot. Many of the former also belong to the latter, and vice versa.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#187
post #29

When reading works like this one I tend to find three stories being merged into one. It focuses on slavery where most of the evil aspects of humans tend to come out, as in order to reduce a human person into something that can be traded, everything that gives that person a social context must be torn down. This is where the "break down" period comes from and it's a common theme in everything from the African slave tr…

I suspect this has something to do with gender roles, where a man who is forced by poverty to unwanted work is a hero while a woman doing the same is a victim.

We lionize coal miners somewhat because they literally power our world at great risk to themselves. It was built upon their backs.

I'm sure one could argue prostitution serves a role in society, but coal and coal miners played a tremendous role in building the modern world as you know it. It's not just "heroism of taking unwanted work".

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what you mean. Don't a lot of nations already receive refugees and those seeking asylum? How could anyone make a guarantee of being able to "go in" and get someone out without infringing upon other nations' sovereignty?

You can't, but sovereignty isn't holy. Today war is waged for oil, might as well be fought for actual freedom. I'd say that providing safe exit from ISIS might be infinitely more effective than bombing them. An exit from extreme poverty and abuse would render vast criminal organizations without victims or workers. The consensus to provide "right of exit" or "passage" should overpower any single country's decision, th…

I still don't understand what you mean. You seem to assume that all the evil acts in the world are motivated by poverty and injustice; that if ISIS only had enough money, they'd stop kidnapping and torturing and killing and destroying.

But ISIS is actually well-funded--that's part of the reason they are able to do the things they are doing. They don't need money; they have plenty. They are motivated by evil, not by poverty.

Also, are you comparing ISIS to mere criminal organizations, like organized crime? If you are, I think that's ridiculous. These are two different kinds of problems. ISIS is not committing identity theft and credit card fraud.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but you seem to think that erasing borders would result in peace and prosperity. Again, not sure that's what you mean, but I think that doing so would have the opposite effect. Borders and separation help prevent tyranny from spreading. They do also permit evil to take root here and there--but evil is never going to go away for good. Just like it's never going to stop raining on this planet, so putting us all in one giant bathtub would only ensure that we all drown when it floods.

What do you mean by "replacing one of the military planes"? If you mean taking the money it costs to build one and giving it to refugees: well, sure, money helps, but many charities are already doing that. And the U.S. military itself spends a lot of time and money helping people. In fact, American soldiers have died recently on pure aid missions in remote places. You don't see the Chinese or Russian military (or ISIS) flying food to starving people free of charge and giving their lives in the process.

So please be careful not to simply vilify the U.S. and its military. There are serious problems in the U.S. government right now, but don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. That's trying to take the easy way out, and it's based on half-truths at best.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#189
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I live in a country where prostitution is legal and not taken as taboo. I can't think of any country that doesn't take prostitution as taboo. Even in Germany and the Netherlands it is...

Australia? It is legal here. It isn't something people talk about much, but that doesn't mean it is a taboo.

Do people exchange tips on brothels to visit at work roughly as easily as they do about restaurants or movies?

If not, there is a taboo, if not about visiting a brothel, then about talking about it.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have some numbers+sources? I live in Germany and the official statement from the police seems to be that it is not actually a huge problem.

I'm just following links others have posted, but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Germany#Human_... . Also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_Germany links to a US Trafficking in Persons Report 2010. Here are some quotes: "Ninety percent of identified victims of trafficking for commercial sexual exploitation came from Europe, including 28 percent from Germany ..." "... approximately one…

So about 700 victims uncovered per year? Although it would also be interesting how it is defined.
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