No Time to Be Nice at Work • Hacker News Board

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#111

Post by awinder » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 3:40 PM UTC

glaberficken wrote: post #95

Civil face to face relations and at the same time "uncivil" communication via email. I've lately been experiencing this at my work place. Face to face, people are all really civil to each other, assertive, giving objective feedback and collaborating really well to get work done. However when things move to the written form (email mostly) things can quickly escalate into finger pointing and the blame game. Anyone got…

One of the more insidious ways that reading books / training up on management or being civil is when people understand the high level message and can relate to some of the individual strategies without personally embracing the ideology. So when you're face to face with other people, you can recall strategies of being civil, you play the part, but deep down the message hasn't been really been fully embraced. All it takes is a situation where strong social cues have been removed (electronic communication) and you're unable to notice that the situation requires care and involves other human beings, and you see a lot of reverting to old, poor habits.

One very skin-deep method to help out there is to create a strong culture around not having endless email discussions and knowing when to take things "off-line". Close, personal communication with care and compromise is how disputes get amicably resolved, and the impersonality of email leads to sides just wanting to be told "You are right, I am wrong". Which is a situation that will never, ever, ever happen.

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#112

Post by JesperRavn » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 4:20 PM UTC

crdoconnor wrote: post #78

tedks wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United States is the way it is because this is the only way to survive within the framework of competitive capitalism. European attempts at cultural protectionism will fail as market pressures force them to adopt American customs and habits. This is just basic economics. American companies ruthlessly optimize for profit. Any attempt to optimize for anything else will take away from the potential for profit. In a…

>This is just basic economics. "Basic economics" as some people call it, is a religion, not a science. Basic neoliberalism, as taught in econ 101, is just as much a shallow pretext for maintaining existing power structures as Stalinism/Marxism was in the Soviet Union, and its predictive power is close to non-existent. Guess why, for example, David Koch donated to Florida State University and then demanded the right t…

According to [0], the Koch foundation made funding of Florida State University conditional on keeping Bruce Benson, a self-described "libertarian anarchist" as department chair. But anyone who calls themselves a libertarian anarchist or teaches Austrian economics is on the fringe of academic economics. In fact it is so non-mainstream that there is an article[1] written for potential PhD students to help find PhD programs that do focus on Austrian economics.

[0] http://www.publicintegrity.org/2014/09/12/15495/koch-foundat...

[1] http://superscholar.org/rankings/economics/top-austrian-free...

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#113

Post by zxcvcxz » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 4:23 PM UTC

j_baker wrote: post #6

I have to say: working in a civil work environment makes a huge difference in terms of job satisfaction and job performance. Civility works for the business, the worker, and the customer. Nobody really benefits from incivility except for the arrogant power-monger over the very short term.

Most of these "safe space" environments are filled with arrogant people who, while not being outright rude, can belittle you passive aggressively and it can sometimes be worse than someone just calling you out on your bullshit.

A friend of mine worked for a startup that's mentioned on HN quite a lot, (I won't say the name). The lead developers used git and IRC chat a lot. After being hired my friend began to test a new product they were working on and submitted some changes to github, they accepted the pull request and my friend submitted a few more finding all sorts of bugs. At this point the lead developers started to argue about how the changes were unnecessary and that my friend needed to learn more about how their product worked, what was rude is that they were publicly arguing while leaving him out of the conversation. No words directed at him, just conversation about him. A few weeks later they realized their project really did have a lot of bugs and pushed through a large change with many of my friends bug-fixes in it without giving him credit or even so much as a thank you.

The lead devs would pal around and make inside jokes and ask my friend to do all sorts of work while leaving him "out of the loop" as if he were some "lackey" for them to boss around and not really part of the team.

Not too long after he started working there the team told him he needed to attend a "conference on sensitivity in OSS" halfway across the country. My friend couldn't make it and then he was basically interrogated by the lead devs as to how he feels is the proper way to treat people. He said he was treated as if he was in trouble and felt like he was being accused of a crime. About a month later he left the company after being continually snubbed by his superiors and not receiving any appreciation for his work.

Personally I get this feeling with a lot of "safe space" organizations I've contributed too. The leaders are arrogant and passive aggressively rude, treat you like crap and belittle your work, then act high-and-mighty because they've never said a curse word.

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#114

Post by unabst » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 5:23 PM UTC

patrickdavey wrote: post #70

I once went to a talk on the "8 powers of leadership", one of these "powers" was the power to be yourself. The presenters idea was to get your "go to hell kit" ready (x months of living expenses saved) and then act the way you believe you should. For example, if a boss started shouting at me, I would politely, but firmly, say shall we continue this in another room, once there, I would try to work out what the issue w…

This is so true, and victims of bullying especially have a problem with this. It helps to realize that the problems is often also the cause, because bullies choose their victims. In a work environment, a kit is probably a good idea, but you'll see people who can't stand up for themselves regardless of circumstance, even when the risk is non-existent. It also has a lot to do with standards and how high or low your standards are for how you should be treated. Too high or too low and there is a price to be paid.

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#115

Post by michaelcampbell » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 5:28 PM UTC

clebio wrote: post #105

codeonfire wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>you don't even know where to find credentials to log into its production systems since it was setup by some employee in the middle of the night a year ago that is no longer there. Recently I was searching for some report generating code that my team had been voluntold to maintain. I spent a day trying to find the code that generated and uploaded the report. Once I finally was able to get in contact with the last per…

> voluntold That's excellent.

We use that term at my company pretty frequently, although I'd just heard it less than a year ago. Seems to be making the rounds.

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#116

Post by unabst » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 5:28 PM UTC

Kindness is so so so underrated. If one needs an excuse to be kind, they are already an asshole. And those who stick around horrible people need to realize that those people suffer greatly for how they behave even if they deny it. In startups especially. A leader that lacks integrity and lacks a heart does not deserve any loyalty, and if you're giving it, you need to consider the possibility that you are victim of a bully.

I also love the conclusion of original article:

Given the enormous cost of incivility, it should not be ignored. We all need to reconsider our behavior. You are always in front of some jury. In every interaction, you have a choice: Do you want to lift people up or hold them down?

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#117

Post by yummyfajitas » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 5:37 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #5

yummyfajitas wrote: post #2

From the article: But insensitivity or disrespect often sabotages support in crucial situations. Employees may fail to share important information and withhold efforts or resources. Sooner or later, uncivil people sabotage their success — or at least their potential. Payback may come immediately or when they least expect it, and it may be intentional or unconscious. It's a bit weird how the article paints this as a f…

Unlike the innocent victim of crime, shareholders create the culture that leads to the sabateurs. They reap what they sow.

The shareholders may (and likely are) completely unaware, particularly if the saboteurs are passive-aggressively harming the shareholders rather than honestly quitting.

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#118

Post by yummyfajitas » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 5:47 PM UTC

parennoob wrote: post #10

yummyfajitas wrote: post #2

From the article: But insensitivity or disrespect often sabotages support in crucial situations. Employees may fail to share important information and withhold efforts or resources. Sooner or later, uncivil people sabotage their success — or at least their potential. Payback may come immediately or when they least expect it, and it may be intentional or unconscious. It's a bit weird how the article paints this as a f…

Putting it as "sabotage" is a bit too dramatic in my opinion. Say Mary walks her boss Tom through filing the necessary documentation every time they put a product on the market (even though it is really his job), and Tom always takes the credit if the product hits the market. This pisses off Mary because she is never acknowledged. Now suppose when releasing Product Z, Mary says "Um, do it yourself. It's your job.", T…

I've been in the situation of Mary, sort of (no one was "taking credit", but I don't care much about such emotional concerns - pay me, let me do my job, I don't care). My action: I did the best I could for shareholders, including doing things that were blatantly not what I was hired for. When it became clear that it was going to be a long term task, I openly said I'd quit if I were expected to continue doing it.

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#119

Post by rowdybully » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 5:49 PM UTC

quanticle wrote: post #88

rowdybully wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employee happiness is relevant to profit/loss, unless it isn't. Look at Walmart: Profits are fine, and employees are noticeably unhappy. Don't delude yourself with idealism. Capitalism is the way it is and it's not right or wrong any more than a beaver building a dam.

Yes, let's look at Walmart. Walmart is increasing wages and staffing across the board because it's getting its clock cleaned by Target, CostCo and other retailers that are willing to pay more and grant better benefits, and therefore get employees who are willing to do more than just the bare minimum.

You don't know your ass from your head. Before you go spouting off untruths you know zero about, go read the respective companies 10-Ks, moron.

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#120

Post by yummyfajitas » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 5:50 PM UTC

j_baker wrote: post #4

yummyfajitas wrote: post #2

From the article: But insensitivity or disrespect often sabotages support in crucial situations. Employees may fail to share important information and withhold efforts or resources. Sooner or later, uncivil people sabotage their success — or at least their potential. Payback may come immediately or when they least expect it, and it may be intentional or unconscious. It's a bit weird how the article paints this as a f…

Are you seriously suggesting that the uncivil boss is the real victim?

No, I'm suggesting shareholders are the real victim. They are the ones paying agents to maximize their wealth while those agents pursue their own agendas instead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal%E2%80%93agent_proble...