No Time to Be Nice at Work • Hacker News Board

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#81

Post by vacri » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 6:46 AM UTC

lionhearted wrote: post #54

vacri wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But liberté, égalité, fraternité requires not having your society conquered by Hitler or Stalin. ... France failed that test and would've been a Nazi puppet state if not liberated by a harder-fighting more determined force than the Germans. Your comment ironically misses that the bulk of the work to bring down Hitler came from Stalin. There's a lot of American Exceptionalism in your comment, and you're handwaving awa…

> ... the least of which is that the French were surprised by brand new tactics in WWII... You're joking, right? The Nazis followed almost exactly the same attack path as World War I, violating Belgian neutrality... again. Oh, how surprising: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I#German_forces_in_B... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_France#Similarity_to... > Your comment ironically misses that the bulk of…

You have an extremely shallow understanding of military history. Do you think that Germany's 'superior tactic of going through Belgium' helped them steamroller Poland, perhaps? It wasn't the move through Belgium that was new, it was "Blitzkreig" - mobility on a scale never before seen.

Likewise, it was well-known that the Maginot Line was supposed to extend along the Belgian border as well; it's just that it was extremely expensive, and France was short on money and manpower.

If you want to call that American exceptionalism, so be it.

Being proud of achievements wasn't the bit I was labelling American Exceptionalism. It's the whole "we're so awesome, if it wasn't for us, you'd all be speaking kraut" and "those Frenchies are so dumb and useless at war" crap. It's a plastic, shallow version of history.

has broadly been very respectful of European culture and cooperative with European countries

Yes, post-WW2, the Marshall Plan was very friendly to Europe, but it also wasn't charity - it was part of the Cold War. But in the last 30 years? Nothing 'very respectful' in particular - it's actually been somewhat hostile. US military aid goes to furthering US political interests, not altruism. If it were altruistic, you'd see a lot more engagement in Africa. Instead we have the US going on wars of adventure to shore up domestic support, and when US allies don't blindly charge in with them, the US political environment turns hostile. Fancy a Freedom Fry?

Not to mention that the US tries to strongarm it's economic and terrorism laws on anywhere in reach (economic laws like those around IP, for example), with varying success in Europe. I'm not seeing actions that I would call "very respectful" - I'm curious as to what you're thinking of here?

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#82

Post by paublyrne » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 6:51 AM UTC

lionhearted wrote: post #54

vacri wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But liberté, égalité, fraternité requires not having your society conquered by Hitler or Stalin. ... France failed that test and would've been a Nazi puppet state if not liberated by a harder-fighting more determined force than the Germans. Your comment ironically misses that the bulk of the work to bring down Hitler came from Stalin. There's a lot of American Exceptionalism in your comment, and you're handwaving awa…

> ... the least of which is that the French were surprised by brand new tactics in WWII... You're joking, right? The Nazis followed almost exactly the same attack path as World War I, violating Belgian neutrality... again. Oh, how surprising: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I#German_forces_in_B... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_France#Similarity_to... > Your comment ironically misses that the bulk of…

The French built the Maginot Line after the war, which proved to be the wrong approach.

Then along came Blitkrieg.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blitzkrieg

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#83

Post by sgt101 » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 6:53 AM UTC

A lot of these things are artifacts of intense competition and change. Ignoring invites often happens (where I work) when people have 20 appointments in a day already! Stress transmits from the top down; if your business is "as usual" you can get your hands round it and run it smoothly, if your platform is on fire and your customers are throwing bombs at you (and disappearing) then staying on an even keel is hard.

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#84

Post by lionhearted » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 7:01 AM UTC

vacri wrote: post #81

lionhearted wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... the least of which is that the French were surprised by brand new tactics in WWII... You're joking, right? The Nazis followed almost exactly the same attack path as World War I, violating Belgian neutrality... again. Oh, how surprising: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I#German_forces_in_B... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_France#Similarity_to... > Your comment ironically misses that the bulk of…

You have an extremely shallow understanding of military history. Do you think that Germany's 'superior tactic of going through Belgium' helped them steamroller Poland, perhaps? It wasn't the move through Belgium that was new, it was "Blitzkreig" - mobility on a scale never before seen. Likewise, it was well-known that the Maginot Line was supposed to extend along the Belgian border as well; it's just that it was extr…

> You have an extremely shallow understanding of military history.

Actually I'm a pretty serious amateur historian who has given briefings to some pretty important people in the US on historical topics.

> it was "Blitzkreig" - mobility on a scale never before seen.

Nazi Germany didn't really pioneer much at all with blitzkreig. Industrialized fast movement warfare in the German tradition was developed under von Moltke, who had been a close observer of what Napoleon got right and integrated railroads, telegraph, and decentralized command --

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmuth_von_Moltke_the_Elder

http://www.amazon.com/Moltke-Art-War-Selected-Writings/dp/08...

Of course, the French were very aware of both of those eras, given that Napoleon was dominant until he eventually couldn't stop expanding, and Moltke and Bismarck overran France and proclaimed the German Unification in Versailles. Meanwhile, the maneuvers into France from Belgium just followed von Schleiffen's plans pretty closely with a lot of commitment. The French should have been better prepared, given that they were the ones to declare war.

There were significant changes in hardware, but blitzkreig's strength was not in the hardware, but in the flexible orders style and deep penetration behind enemy lines... which in itself wasn't new and was modeled on Napoleon and adapted by Moltke to industrialization. Rocketry and airplanes saw huge advances, but most of why the Germans were fast was in logistics, communications, and intangibles around Auftragstaktik type stuff --

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission-type_tactics#Origins

> If it were altruistic, you'd see a lot more engagement in Africa.

It's damned if we do, damned if we don't. They tried in Mogadishu, there was no strategic interest there for the US. Serbian campaign was anti-strategic for the US, done for human rights. It's tough. I'm glad I don't have to make foreign policy.

As for counter terrorism and intellectual property, these are again complicated. I don't claim the US is perfect, but I think the US does okay in these areas. I do stand by what I said in that I don't think there's any world hegemon in history as generally benevolent, cooperative, and pro-social as the US has been.

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#85

Post by wyclif » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 7:53 AM UTC

For those of you that like business books, and want to improve the culture of your workplace in terms of creating space for respect, civility, compassion, and yes—love, I thought this is relevant to these issues:

http://www.amazon.com/Love-Is-Killer-App-Influence/dp/140004...

It's not a new book, and it's written by a Yahoo guy, but don't let those things put you off. There's tons of actionable stuff here.

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#86

Post by vacri » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 8:06 AM UTC

lionhearted wrote: post #84

vacri wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have an extremely shallow understanding of military history. Do you think that Germany's 'superior tactic of going through Belgium' helped them steamroller Poland, perhaps? It wasn't the move through Belgium that was new, it was "Blitzkreig" - mobility on a scale never before seen. Likewise, it was well-known that the Maginot Line was supposed to extend along the Belgian border as well; it's just that it was extr…

> You have an extremely shallow understanding of military history. Actually I'm a pretty serious amateur historian who has given briefings to some pretty important people in the US on historical topics. > it was "Blitzkreig" - mobility on a scale never before seen. Nazi Germany didn't really pioneer much at all with blitzkreig. Industrialized fast movement warfare in the German tradition was developed under von Moltk…

Why, then, do you make such a throwaway, shallow comment like "their tactic was going through Belgium"? This is exactly my point - what you're saying is a plastic version of history, and it's only now that you're pressed on the issue that you start talking about a more complex picture. It benefits nothing but mindless patriotism.

If you really are the serious historian you claim to be, you'll know just how damaging and misleading such comments are.

> I don't think there's any world hegemon in history as generally benevolent, respectful, and pro-social as the US has been.

Rome had some high points. Their thousand years wasn't all conquering and pillaging - there was plenty of spread of learning, industry, trade, finer culture. Yes, they did a fair amount of warfare to become top dog... but so did the US - manifest destiny, conquering large parts of Mexico, taking lands from Spain...

... "but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"... :)

In any case, the "shut up and be thankful" trump card of US involvement in WWII can be countered with the "shut up and be thankful" trump card of French involvement in the US War of Independence. It's a stupid trump card to play anyway.

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#87

Post by __Joker » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 8:07 AM UTC

I have heard first hand about some CEO or bosses deliberately practising meanness/curtness. The worst thing of all is I could not fathom they kind of justifying and moving on. Most likely if things are working something most be right.

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#88

Post by quanticle » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 8:14 AM UTC

rowdybully wrote: post #22

encoderer wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employee happiness is absolutely relevant to P&L. Happy employees are more productive and have less turnover. Companies already know this. It becomes a game of "how little must we do" but it's far from the sweatshop imagery I saw while reading your comment. I grew up middle class in middle America and it's not just the SF tech scene I've made my career in; I grew up in a world of company picnics and "4 10s" work week…

Employee happiness is relevant to profit/loss, unless it isn't. Look at Walmart: Profits are fine, and employees are noticeably unhappy. Don't delude yourself with idealism. Capitalism is the way it is and it's not right or wrong any more than a beaver building a dam.

Yes, let's look at Walmart. Walmart is increasing wages and staffing across the board because it's getting its clock cleaned by Target, CostCo and other retailers that are willing to pay more and grant better benefits, and therefore get employees who are willing to do more than just the bare minimum.

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#89

Post by fsloth » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 8:20 AM UTC

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #34

tedks wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United States is the way it is because this is the only way to survive within the framework of competitive capitalism. European attempts at cultural protectionism will fail as market pressures force them to adopt American customs and habits. This is just basic economics. American companies ruthlessly optimize for profit. Any attempt to optimize for anything else will take away from the potential for profit. In a…

Economic protectionism has been an integral part of U.S. policy since the 1850s or so. Politicians were pretty big on tariffs and land law acts for nearly a century, though they have since declined in favor of gunboat diplomacy.

This this this. Freemarket aficionados often conveniently forget that for e.g. South Korea the basis for it's current economic status was forged by strict government controls and not just by "letting markets do it".

The point is, there is very little value in evaluating economic strategies just through textbook orthodoxy.

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#90

Post by geomark » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 9:10 AM UTC

mikerichards wrote: post #46

comrade1 wrote: post #26

Aggressive behavior is the norm when working as a consultant. You have to know that it's not personal and that part of it is negotiation on the part of the client, part of it is anger on the part of the client, some of it is just due to poor personality, some of it due to your misunderstanding of the situation and culture. Most people are not fit to work in a high-stress, aggressive environment, but some of us are. A…

Yes, and unfortunately you have to add to the aggression by being aggressive and abrasive yourself. You have to stand up for yourself and push back. I make it a point to be somewhat aggressive and non-collaborative when I'm dealing with our VP of Development just so he knows that I won't be pushed around. Guess what. It works. I've intentionally been aggressive in meetings with him to show him that I won't be pushed…

Reminds me of my boss's boss at a big company some years ago. When you presented a proposal or project status he would badger you with vulgarities until you swore back at him. He insisted you swear at him. Then you could move on with your message. I felt sorry for my boss, a very religious man who would not swear under any circumstances. He absorbed terrible abuse in every meeting I attended where he and his boss were both present. But I had no problem since my nature is rather rough so once I knew the rules I would cuss that pr*ck out at the first opportunity every time, and he loved me. Toxic environment much?