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No Time to Be Nice at Work

nytimes.com

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Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#41

Post by codeonfire »

spotman wrote: post #36
jliechti1 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you able to share a few?

I share the opinion of the parent comment, pretty much exactly. Some of my comrades call this a layer-8 problem. (hint: there is only 7 technology levels, 8 is the human one). One story in particular my firm was hired to come into a startup that had failed to scale, both technology wise, and personnel wise. They had hired up to 25 engineers, hoping to fix their stability issues, and almost going bankrupt doing it. I…

>you don't even know where to find credentials to log into its production systems since it was setup by some employee in the middle of the night a year ago that is no longer there.

Recently I was searching for some report generating code that my team had been voluntold to maintain. I spent a day trying to find the code that generated and uploaded the report. Once I finally was able to get in contact with the last person who had worked on it I found that a developer in India was manually running and uploading the report every week. Why? Because job security.

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#42

Post by spotman »

codeonfire wrote: post #41
spotman wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I share the opinion of the parent comment, pretty much exactly. Some of my comrades call this a layer-8 problem. (hint: there is only 7 technology levels, 8 is the human one). One story in particular my firm was hired to come into a startup that had failed to scale, both technology wise, and personnel wise. They had hired up to 25 engineers, hoping to fix their stability issues, and almost going bankrupt doing it. I…

>you don't even know where to find credentials to log into its production systems since it was setup by some employee in the middle of the night a year ago that is no longer there. Recently I was searching for some report generating code that my team had been voluntold to maintain. I spent a day trying to find the code that generated and uploaded the report. Once I finally was able to get in contact with the last per…

Oh man, I can relate so much its painful.

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#43

Post by hackuser »

littletimmy wrote: post #3

This is to be expected when the working environment gets as cut-throat as the American workplace has become. Blame it on inequality, blame it on the puritanical drive to overwork, blame it on the zeal to squeeze every last bit of profit. It's just one other symptom of how anyone who is not an oligarch in this society is meant as an expendable resource to be crushed by the ubermensch. My only hope is that the USA fail…

This is nothing unique to the United States (or to the 21st century). Just read a history book about another time and place. The workplace here and now is far kinder and gentler than almost any time or place in history (with the possible exception of contemporary, developed nations).

In the good old days, children worked and in horrible jobs, such as coal mines; workers regularly lost limb and life; 7 day weeks and incredible hours were the norm, and in physically and environmentally horrible jobs.

That said, we should do better.

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#44

Post by ams6110 »

MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #13
tedks wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United States is the way it is because this is the only way to survive within the framework of competitive capitalism. European attempts at cultural protectionism will fail as market pressures force them to adopt American customs and habits. This is just basic economics. American companies ruthlessly optimize for profit. Any attempt to optimize for anything else will take away from the potential for profit. In a…

That is a very simplistic world view. Have you ever been to Europe? Central and northern Europe are very successful economically. I know several people that once worked for an american firm, and won't ever do so again. I have never heard that about swiss, swedish or german firms. You might want to check out these GDP stats: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_economy#Current_world_ec... The US and Europe are pretty c…

It's very individual, and not unique to the USA at all. I have worked in the USA for over 20 years and am thankful that I have never had what I would consider an uncivil boss or supervisor. Demanding at times, yes, playing politics to advance themselves, yes ... but never just overtly rude or mean.

Europe does not avoid this phenomenon. Human nature is human nature. There are bullies and assholes everywhere.

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#45

Post by jseliger »

comrade1 wrote: post #26

Aggressive behavior is the norm when working as a consultant. You have to know that it's not personal and that part of it is negotiation on the part of the client, part of it is anger on the part of the client, some of it is just due to poor personality, some of it due to your misunderstanding of the situation and culture. Most people are not fit to work in a high-stress, aggressive environment, but some of us are. A…

Aggressive behavior is the norm when working as a consultant. You have to know that it's not personal and that part of it is negotiation on the part of the client, part of it is anger on the part of the client, some of it is just due to poor personality, some of it due to your misunderstanding of the situation and culture

I think much of it is the nature of dealing with clients too. I wrote more about that in "How I learned about assertiveness and reality from being a consultant" (http://jakeseliger.com/2014/04/07/how-i-learned-about-assert...), which started life as an email to some friends who didn't totally understand the nature of consulting: Someone pays you, or they don't. If no money changes hands you don't have a business.

Much of the polite and deferential behavior that's inculcated in the education system or in large companies can be exploited by potential clients. Consultants have to learn this, and pretty much every one does, either with greater or lesser ease.

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#46

Post by mikerichards »

comrade1 wrote: post #26

Aggressive behavior is the norm when working as a consultant. You have to know that it's not personal and that part of it is negotiation on the part of the client, part of it is anger on the part of the client, some of it is just due to poor personality, some of it due to your misunderstanding of the situation and culture. Most people are not fit to work in a high-stress, aggressive environment, but some of us are. A…

Yes, and unfortunately you have to add to the aggression by being aggressive and abrasive yourself.

You have to stand up for yourself and push back. I make it a point to be somewhat aggressive and non-collaborative when I'm dealing with our VP of Development just so he knows that I won't be pushed around.

Guess what. It works. I've intentionally been aggressive in meetings with him to show him that I won't be pushed around. It's almost like a test for some upper management types. "Let me see if I can tweak this guy"

That's sad. I'd rather have a thoughtful, collaborative environment, but we deal with the cards we've been dealt.

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#47

Post by mikerichards »

comrade1 wrote: post #37
jliechti1 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you able to share a few?

I think there's only one that I'm comfortable talking about since it was long ago and the people involved have all moved on from their parent companies. Louis Vuitton was relaunching their public-facing website, which was tightly integrated with their back-end systems - inventory, manufacturing, etc. IOW, it wasn't just a regular website. They hired a consulting company here in Europe who sold them a solution that wa…

Just curious about that "american, swiss, and german consultants".

Did you all speak english? Did the swiss and french speak french sometimes?

Interesting dynamics.

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#48

Post by vacri »

lionhearted wrote: post #39
littletimmy wrote: post #3

This is to be expected when the working environment gets as cut-throat as the American workplace has become. Blame it on inequality, blame it on the puritanical drive to overwork, blame it on the zeal to squeeze every last bit of profit. It's just one other symptom of how anyone who is not an oligarch in this society is meant as an expendable resource to be crushed by the ubermensch. My only hope is that the USA fail…

> Europe should stay civilized, for the sake of its people. Yeah, what a shame those driven over-working puritans went and exported their Americanism to those civilized Europeans in 1944. Edit: I'll make the point more explicitly in response to the downvoting. (1) It's easy to decry efficiency and hard work in times of peace. But liberté, égalité, fraternité requires not having your society conquered by Hitler or Sta…

But liberté, égalité, fraternité requires not having your society conquered by Hitler or Stalin.

...

France failed that test and would've been a Nazi puppet state if not liberated by a harder-fighting more determined force than the Germans.

Your comment ironically misses that the bulk of the work to bring down Hitler came from Stalin. There's a lot of American Exceptionalism in your comment, and you're handwaving away a lot of inconvenient points - not the least of which is that the French were surprised by brand new tactics in WWII, just like everyone else. The US had the luxury of years of time to figure out how to respond, plus had an immense industrial base that the enemy could not touch. France was plenty willing to fight hard - witness their WWI experience.

The US is awesome, and has tons of awesome people. But you should be exhorting folks to see the full picture rather than papering over the cracks and providing a doctored view of history.

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#49

Post by jpmoral »

spotman wrote: post #36
jliechti1 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you able to share a few?

I share the opinion of the parent comment, pretty much exactly. Some of my comrades call this a layer-8 problem. (hint: there is only 7 technology levels, 8 is the human one). One story in particular my firm was hired to come into a startup that had failed to scale, both technology wise, and personnel wise. They had hired up to 25 engineers, hoping to fix their stability issues, and almost going bankrupt doing it. I…

>you don't even know where to find credentials to log into its production systems since it was setup by some employee in the middle of the night a year ago that is no longer there.

I've been the 'some employee'. I setup the prod systems of a former employer's client. While I did hand over the credentials, for the first few months after leaving I expected to get a call from my former employer asking for them.

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#50

Post by vacri »

spotman wrote: post #36
jliechti1 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you able to share a few?

I share the opinion of the parent comment, pretty much exactly. Some of my comrades call this a layer-8 problem. (hint: there is only 7 technology levels, 8 is the human one). One story in particular my firm was hired to come into a startup that had failed to scale, both technology wise, and personnel wise. They had hired up to 25 engineers, hoping to fix their stability issues, and almost going bankrupt doing it. I…

"Layer 8 Error" is one of my favourites, classier than PEBKAC or ID-10-T. It's based off the OSI 7-layer networking model. Next layer up from the application? Must be the user...

https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=OSI_model

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