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Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

arstechnica.co.uk

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Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#161

Post by masklinn »

unfamiliar wrote: post #146
hendersoon wrote: post #126

Sadly, the blocker for external graphics isn't the power draw, it's that Intel steadfastly refuses to license Thunderbolt for external GPU enclosures. That's why you can't buy a macbook air and plug in a little $300 box with a GeForce 970 and play high-end games on it right now. There are no technical reasons why this won't work-- in fact, people have hacked together solutions that work great. Intel doesn't want to l…

I suspect this is because they think thunderbolt 1 and perhaps even 2 do not have the bandwidth to give satisfying graphics performance. This might change with thunderbolt 3.

TB1 and TB2 might not have had enough bandwidth for high-performance stuff but it did have more than enough bandwidth to blow IGPs out of the water: DYI external TB2 systems had 80~90% of "internal" desktop performances on synthetic benchmarks[0], even with a TB — EC chain you could reach very, very respectable performances[1]

[0] http://www.anandtech.com/show/7987/running-an-nvidia-gtx-780...

[1] http://forum.techinferno.com/implementation-guides-apple/427...

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#162

Post by coldtea »

Roritharr wrote: post #53

I'm kinda disapointed about the whole Type-C scenario. Now when you've got a Type-C Port, you just don't know what it can do. It could be anything from a USB 2 Port, up to a USB 3.1 + 20A Power + Thunderbolt Port. You can't see this from looking at it, and Spec Sheets today have a problem of listing the version numbers of HDMI and DisplayPort Ports, I don't see them suddenly becoming very concise about this. The prom…

>In 2020 i won't be able to know if the monitor i recommend my mother will be able to connect to her laptop over the USB Type-C Port or not, or if it will run at full resolution or not, if it will be able to charge the notebook over it, or not... etc.

2020? Even in 2015 you can just look up the laptop model on Google and get results about whether the monitor will work with it or not, the resolution etc.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#163

Post by coldtea »

itchyouch wrote: post #91
izacus wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will I? I've seen software developers (tech people!) return their MacBooks to Apple store because they wouldn't drive a Thunderbolt display (with the issue of course being that older MBs had only DisplayPort output, which is physically identical). This will cause confusion (especially with added confusion around DisplayPort standard support over the USB connector) and it's unfortunate that a new connectivity standard…

I'd imagine that Apple has learned from history that its proprietary & non-widespread (niche) connectors have not seen the type of industry-wide adoption that they would have liked to have seen (a la ADC, firewire, iPhone 1st gen, etc) regardless of technical merit. They have diverted from industry standards when the current off-the-shelf components did not necessarily meet their design desires/criteria. I'm guessing…

>iPhone 1st gen

Actually iPhone 1st gen got HUGE industry adoption, if we're talking about third party peripherals etc.

If you mean other companies using it in their phones, computers etc, Apple never allowed that in the first place.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#164

Post by lsaferite »

adlpz wrote: post #38
smhenderson wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could even see them ditching the head phone jack eventually. I can't imagine it will be long before someone starts making USB C headphones.

I hope they don't do that, I don't want to go around with a DAC hanging off my headphones. And making them more expensive.

It wouldn't need a DAC, just a special plug. Type-C connectors support an analog audio mode.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#165

Post by lsaferite »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #93
lectrick wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the record, 1) Apple was the first to use USB even though it wasn't an Apple tech 2) Apple was the first to use Thunderbolt even though it wasn't an Apple tech 3) Apple is now the first to use USB 3 Type C (aka "USB-C") even though it wasn't an Apple tech (although rumor has it that Apple engineers had a lot of input on it) The technology you're probably confusing it with is FireWire, which WAS Apple tech.

Thunderbolt uses the Mini DisplayPort connector which was and is Apple tech, although DisplayPort itself is not.

Not sure why, but calling the mDP connector 'technology' vs. 'engineering' seems wrong to me. They are electrically identical as far as I can tell. The only innovation was in scaling the connector size down.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#166

Post by lsaferite »

pgeorgi wrote: post #158
cmsj wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we have enough detail about Thunderbolt 3 yet to know whether devices will be able to detect that they are connected to a USB port and not a Thunderbolt port. If they can detect that, they may well be able to choose to degrade. It seems like an ideal way for Apple to be able to ship a display which can be connected to both thunderbolt and USB-C hosts, without the user having to care. Obviously some Thun…

The Type C spec also mentions a PCIe alternate mode. The main complication is to support both wrapper protocols given that thunderbolt pushes twice the bits per second over the same wire (if using active cabling)

Wrapper protocol?

The alt-mode stuff is a physical signal multiplexing, not a protocol encapsulation.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#167

Post by lsaferite »

tracker1 wrote: post #68
Already__Taken wrote: post #10

Seems to be trading all our different ports with the problem of having all levels of different cables? This port is going to be very expensive for the manufactures. If it does everything I'm going to need a bunch. Does anything stop OEMs making a row of identical ports that only 1 charges my laptop, only a couple take can use the fastest cable and I'm sure all sorts of potential shenanigans,

Why do you need a bunch? Most will be able to get by with a single port, to one-two monitors with a couple USB-A ports (and ethernet) on the monitors... or via a Thundebolt/USB-C dock.

To run multi-monitor you'd need the monitor to embed a DP-MST hub or embed a USB 3 video device if you only used a single port.

The alt-mode capability cannot traverse a hub.

More likely you'd have dual cables running to dual monitors. Each monitor could provide internal USB 3.1 hubs and associated devices plus feed 100W back up the line if needed.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#168

Post by lsaferite »

cmsj wrote: post #125
ZenoArrow wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any word on whether the cables will be different? I suspect the cables will match, but the protocols the port support will be determined by the controller chipset.

Thunderbolt 1&2 connectors have active electronics in the connectors, and that seems likely to stay in 3, so yes, the cables will be different.

They specifically call out in the release that 20Gb will use passive cables and 40Gb will require active cables.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#169

Post by duaneb »

rsynnott wrote: post #70
bryanlarsen wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After the MacBook came out, but before the new Chromebook Pixel, I was telling people that Apple only put a single type-C port on their MacBook for this reason. I said "When PC's come out with type-C, they'll have multiple ports, but you'll only be able to use one of them as the power port. Apple would rather have a single port than have such a confusing setup." Of course, then the Chromebook Pixel came out and prove…

Is that definitely the case? It's still not unknown for laptops to have exactly one charging downstream USB port, unlabelled, so that some devices will charge from one port and not another. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the same is happening with USB-C.

Yea, this is a problem that could be solved by color coded stickers.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#170

Post by lsaferite »

Already__Taken wrote: post #21
ZenoArrow wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any word on whether the cables will be different? I suspect the cables will match, but the protocols the port support will be determined by the controller chipset.

I can't see how the cables will look much different between each other but even so they will all fit the same connector. There's already planned the 20gbps copper, 40gbps active copper and optical. What mechanism can stop the £0.99 charge only cables people expect to plug in their portable hard drives through.

USB-PD can check the cable to see what it's capabilities are so it won't push too much current over the wrong type of cable. I imagine any scheme to use TB3 over a Type-C connector will be able of checking the cable as well.
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