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Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

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Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#81

Post by fractallyte »

fractallyte wrote: post #78

I'm currently teaching computing at a independent fundamentalist Christian 'young Earth' creationist school - in London, UK. It's surreal at times. The kids (~20 altogether!) are wonderful: well mannered, eager to learn. So my frustration is extreme when I see the material they're being force-fed. The school follows the ACE ('Accelerated Christian Education') curriculum. It's imported from the USA, and teaches that t…

Incidentally, the article is wrong on one important point: "The teaching of creationism as a scientific fact and evidence-based theory is prohibited in schools in England and Wales."

This only applies to government-funded schools. Independent schools can get away with anything.

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#82

Post by dataker »

mikeash wrote: post #47
dataker wrote: post #39

Although I'm an atheist, I find this to be somewhat disturbing. Creationism, regardless of its mythological background, still is part of Humanity and any conclusions about it should be drawn by the individual, not the State or teachers. They'd be better off spending more time with Critical Thinking, Scientific Method and Logic, powerful tools to genuinely understand Religion and not just take "facts" for granted.

Would you say this about other subjects, or just the origins of life and the universe? Would you say that schools should not exclusively teach that 2+2=4, but give the students tools and allow them to draw their own conclusions? Should schools allow students to reach their own conclusions as to whether the Earth is flat, or whether the Sun is pulled across the sky by chariots? Schools should absolutely teach creation…

Going back to the Greeks(e.g Essentialism) all the way to Modern Evolution would foster a much stronger intellectual background and avoid most future indoctrination. Understanding fallacies in theories is better than just taking them for granted.

But why be so picky on this matter? Unlike other concepts, Religion/Indoctrination can have a serious impact on one's life and true critical thinking is the only weapon against it.

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#83

Post by gyim »

earlyriser wrote: post #8
goodJobWalrus wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that really a thing in the rest of the world? I thought it was mostly the US, and even there mostly the homeschooling thing.

That's also my perspective. I grew up in Mexico, a very Catholic country and I went to a private Catholic school and we had religious classes and science classes. The content of both wasn't mixed, we had "brothers" giving the religious ones, and real scientists (Chemists, Biologists) giving the science ones. Even priests conceded that the Genesis story was a metaphor.

I had similar experiences in Hungary: I grew up in a very religious community (mostly Catholic) and went to a Catholic high school. Many of our teachers (including biology, geology and physics) were Catholic priests, yet I never heard anybody arguing against evolution.

I was 17 years old when I first met a young-earth creationist: he was an American missionary... I am still Christian and I know lots of people in various religious groups, but 14 years later I have only met one person who believes in Intelligent Design, and I know about 2 other people from mailing lists / blogs who are creationists.

The sad part is, young-earth creationists are such a vocal group that whenever somebody learns that I am a Christian, I am usually asked how I can believe in such nonsense as a 6000-year old Earth :)

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#84

Post by copsarebastards »

ticksoft wrote: post #15

I'm divided on these sorts of things (I didn't used to be). Sure science classes shouldn't be teaching religion, but having governments decide what's an approved view for its population is bothersome. People should be allowed to make mistakes and when the parents realise that their kids are at a disadvantage then the parents should learn to gather together and fix it themselves. Encourage people to be active in their…

> People should be allowed to make mistakes and when the parents realise that their kids are at a disadvantage then the parents should learn to gather together and fix it themselves.

Fix it themselves, perhaps by electing government officials who represent their views on what should be taught in schools and can outlaw obvious lies from curriculum? I really don't see the problem here.

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#85

Post by copsarebastards »

itsybitsy wrote: post #31
kbart wrote: post #14

I find it funny and sad that in 21st century we still have to explicitly prohibit such thing. Up next -- "Tooth faery theory banned from dental schools".

If you're comparing creationism to the tooth fairy, it's fair to point out that the alternate scientific theory is that we magically appeared out of nothing, like Dr. Who's telephone box. I'm not arguing for either theory, and certainly not arguing for the teaching of creationism in schools.

> If you're comparing creationism to the tooth fairy, it's fair to point out that the alternate scientific theory is that we magically appeared out of nothing, like Dr. Who's telephone box.

If that's your understanding of evolution, it's fair to point out that maybe if you hadn't been taught creationist lies, that time could have been spent teaching you evolution, which you clearly needed more time learning, since you don't understand it.

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#86

Post by mikeash »

dataker wrote: post #82
mikeash wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you say this about other subjects, or just the origins of life and the universe? Would you say that schools should not exclusively teach that 2+2=4, but give the students tools and allow them to draw their own conclusions? Should schools allow students to reach their own conclusions as to whether the Earth is flat, or whether the Sun is pulled across the sky by chariots? Schools should absolutely teach creation…

Going back to the Greeks(e.g Essentialism) all the way to Modern Evolution would foster a much stronger intellectual background and avoid most future indoctrination. Understanding fallacies in theories is better than just taking them for granted. But why be so picky on this matter? Unlike other concepts, Religion/Indoctrination can have a serious impact on one's life and true critical thinking is the only weapon agai…

I'm not sure I understand what you're proposing here or what your problem is with what's currently being done.

Are you saying there should be a single class that teaches both Essentialism and evolution? It seems reasonable for the same school to teach both, but they belong in different classes. The former would be in a philosophy class, while the latter would be in a science class. Are you saying that facts shouldn't be taught at all, merely the history of thought? Or, again, is it just evolution?

You say that religion is of particular importance here, but the whole point of this is that evolution is not religion. It's just science, like any other science, and belongs in school just as much as Newton's Laws or Maxwell's Equations. What's disturbing about a governing body saying that school science classes should only teach science and not religion?

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#87

Post by kendallpark »

mikeash wrote: post #60
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its worse than that. They're deliberately hijacking the catchphrases of science to appear legitimate, so they can insert their religious message into classrooms. Its as cynical as can be. No need to impute goodwill or mistaken good intentions; they have an agenda.

They truly believe that their opposition is doing the exact same thing. They're being underhanded because they believe that evil scientists (no doubt guided by Satan) make up clever-sounding non-God theories of the world to appear legitimate and thus push their non-religious message into classrooms. We see this as people pushing fairy tales over truth. They see their actions as a small battle in a great war between G…

Yes, yes, all of these observations are true.

The best remedy to this that I've found is simply more education. The majority of the freshman class were creationists in my college, but the majority of the senior class ended up evolutionists. It just takes thinking and exposure, especially from other Christians. Someone might grow up in a small world where to be Christian is to be creationist. Then he meets thoughtful, well-educated devoted Christians that aren't creationists and it opens his mind to other possibilities.

You really can't argue with creationists. I've gotten to the point where I don't argue with anyone that doesn't have a sufficient scientific background and shift the discussion toward whether they're knowledgeable enough to have such opinions. Then I challenge them to take some basic biology 101 coursework so we can actually have a real discussion.

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#88

Post by mikeash »

13years wrote: post #79
olavk wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that line of reasoning schools should no teach anything at all. 2+2=5 is just as valid math as 2+2=4, anything else would be allowing the government to hide the truth!

That is not what I stated. Banning is saying that we can't discuss why 2+2 is not 5, because that subject is banned. If a lot of people come often come to a wrong conclusion, you should be able to teach and discuss why that happens. Banning subjects is running away from debate and discussion. It fails to teach logical analysis and investigation.

If any of my math classes had wasted a bunch of time on, "While we know that 2+2=4, there are a bunch of people who believe that 2+2=5, here's why they're wrong," I would have been rather annoyed.

The space of things that are wrong is too vast to explore thoroughly. Stick to what's right.

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#89

Post by mikeash »

gizi wrote: post #58
janvidar wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it bothersome that the goverment decides that it is illegal for schools to teach a lie? Schools are a social(ist) institution put in place by the goverment to ensure people have an equal access to knowledge - a foundation. Schools also have to follow a certain curriculum which would give this foundation. A school cannot simply choose to not teach reading or writing, or teach that the earth is flat because they…

"Why is it bothersome that the goverment decides that it is illegal for schools to teach a lie?" Creationism is not a lie. It is just not science. But then again, the same holds true for evolutionism, which is also not a lie. It is just also not science.

I don't like the word "lie," because it implies too much about people's motivations. A lie is a statement that the person believes to be false but says anyway. Creationists usually believe their own proclamations, so it's not a lie. It is, however, false. Creationism is false, both in large and in detail, in that it makes a great deal of claims that are demonstrably untrue.

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#90

Post by kendallpark »

mikeash wrote: post #50
kendallpark wrote: post #34

It's fine to teach creationism... just not in a science class. What the majority of the creation supporters don't get is that creationism isn't a science, it's a philosophy. There's nothing constructive or tangible about the theory. You can't test it in a lab, you can't observe it in nature--unless you think irreducible complexity (aka "we don't understand how this could come about, therefore it must be divinely crea…

In my experience (of which I unfortunately have far too much), creationists fundamentally don't understand what science is, which is why they think their ideas qualify. They simply don't grasp the depth or the quantitative nature that underlies statements like "the universe is 13 billion years old" or "humans evolved from single-celled organisms." It's basically cargo-culting popular science articles. They see someth…

The funny thing is, it was actually creationists that convinced me that evolution was true. I grew up in a fundamentalist Baptist church. Used to drive my biology teachers nuts regurgitating the arguments I'd read against evolution. Then toward the end of high school I went to a "Science Class" at my church. It was lead by some church dude that had little to no college education in the sciences. He started reading through some creation arguments from a book and it occurred to me how flimsy they were. So I started debating with him (I was just an argumentative kid and loved to play devil's advocate) and his reasoning just fell apart. I left that class immensely perturbed by my church's attempt to masquerade creationist propaganda as a "science" class. Clearly they didn't know what "science" actually entailed.

My biggest takeaway was that most of the people preaching against evolution are not even qualified to have an informed opinion on the subject. By college I had flipped camps.

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