Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

iflscience.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 113 posts

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#51

Post by gizi »

tomp wrote: post #43
gizi wrote: post #33

Creationism has obviously no foundation in science but neither has evolutionism. Where are the repeatable experiments required in order to be able to look for counterexamples for evolutionism? Has anybody ever "evolved" a species from another? If yes, how can we repeat that experiment? It is clear that evolutionism has no scientific status either.

You don't understand what evolution is. It really a name, and needs no proof. Basically, there are a few known facts: (1) organisms die, (2) organisms reproduce, (3) the offspring are different from each other and from the parents, (4) the differences are more or less random, (5) dying is not random but a consequence of external forces, and (6) external forces are relatively constant. From these facts, it logically f…

If it needs no proof, it is not science either, and that was exactly the point I was making.

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#52

Post by s_dev »

mattmanser wrote: post #27
s_dev wrote: post #19

Most of the UK and Ireland are arguably secular (but not technically) with most people holding reasonable scientifically literate beliefs. Northern Ireland however is the last bastion of open religious bigotry and nonsense in the UK. Classic example. Republic of Ireland passed a Gay Marriage referendum last week while at the same time in NI a confectionary baker "Ashers" in Northern Ireland refused to serve a gay man…

I didn't d/v you, but I think if you dig into a few more of your friends views you'd find a lot more religion than you realise.

Actually no, not in the younger generation but absolutely in the older generations. Ireland is one of the most rapidly secularising/atheist countries in the world at the moment with the UK close behind.

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#53

Post by olavk »

13years wrote: post #35
janvidar wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it bothersome that the goverment decides that it is illegal for schools to teach a lie? Schools are a social(ist) institution put in place by the goverment to ensure people have an equal access to knowledge - a foundation. Schools also have to follow a certain curriculum which would give this foundation. A school cannot simply choose to not teach reading or writing, or teach that the earth is flat because they…

Because banning gives a government the power to hide the truth. Who gets to decide something is a lie? The majority may all be in favor this time, but what gets banned next? There is no issue with schools deciding it is not in their interest to teach a subject; however, not being allowed to discus a subject is same as book burning. How about letting schools teach the subject along with skills on how to do proper inve…

By that line of reasoning schools should no teach anything at all. 2+2=5 is just as valid math as 2+2=4, anything else would be allowing the government to hide the truth!

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#54

Post by mikeash »

ticksoft wrote: post #15

I'm divided on these sorts of things (I didn't used to be). Sure science classes shouldn't be teaching religion, but having governments decide what's an approved view for its population is bothersome. People should be allowed to make mistakes and when the parents realise that their kids are at a disadvantage then the parents should learn to gather together and fix it themselves. Encourage people to be active in their…

What do you suppose a government is, if not people "gather[ing] together [to] fix it themselves"?

I'll also note that if parents feel strongly about their children learning creationism, nothing prevents them from teaching it themselves, or buying books that teach it, or even inviting "learned" lecturers to present the topic. This is just about taxpayers not paying for the teaching of nonsense.

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#55

Post by olavk »

gizi wrote: post #44
olavk wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not correct. Evolution have been observed in nature and artificially reproduced many many times. Just look at dogs. Separate species of fruit flies have been evolved in a laboratory setting.

Can you produce a link to a repeatable experiment in which one species is being "evolved" from another?

Sure: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_45

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#56

Post by JoeAltmaier »

mikeash wrote: post #50
kendallpark wrote: post #34

It's fine to teach creationism... just not in a science class. What the majority of the creation supporters don't get is that creationism isn't a science, it's a philosophy. There's nothing constructive or tangible about the theory. You can't test it in a lab, you can't observe it in nature--unless you think irreducible complexity (aka "we don't understand how this could come about, therefore it must be divinely crea…

In my experience (of which I unfortunately have far too much), creationists fundamentally don't understand what science is, which is why they think their ideas qualify. They simply don't grasp the depth or the quantitative nature that underlies statements like "the universe is 13 billion years old" or "humans evolved from single-celled organisms." It's basically cargo-culting popular science articles. They see someth…

Its worse than that. They're deliberately hijacking the catchphrases of science to appear legitimate, so they can insert their religious message into classrooms. Its as cynical as can be. No need to impute goodwill or mistaken good intentions; they have an agenda.

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#57

Post by mikeash »

gizi wrote: post #49
jobigoud wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_evolution

They may indeed try to evolve a species out of another. In all examples in your link, they stay within the same species, however. There is simply no convincing experiment in which they evolve one species out of another. It does not exist.

"Species" is an artificial distinction that human biologists use to make it easier to talk about what's going on. There is no objective distinction between species. The idea that the universe somehow permits evolution within a species but does not permit evolution from one species to another is nonsensical, on roughly the same level as thinking that it's possible to walk one mile but not possible to walk ten miles.

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#58

Post by gizi »

janvidar wrote: post #23
ticksoft wrote: post #15

I'm divided on these sorts of things (I didn't used to be). Sure science classes shouldn't be teaching religion, but having governments decide what's an approved view for its population is bothersome. People should be allowed to make mistakes and when the parents realise that their kids are at a disadvantage then the parents should learn to gather together and fix it themselves. Encourage people to be active in their…

Why is it bothersome that the goverment decides that it is illegal for schools to teach a lie? Schools are a social(ist) institution put in place by the goverment to ensure people have an equal access to knowledge - a foundation. Schools also have to follow a certain curriculum which would give this foundation. A school cannot simply choose to not teach reading or writing, or teach that the earth is flat because they…

"Why is it bothersome that the goverment decides that it is illegal for schools to teach a lie?" Creationism is not a lie. It is just not science. But then again, the same holds true for evolutionism, which is also not a lie. It is just also not science.

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#59

Post by JoeAltmaier »

kendallpark wrote: post #34

It's fine to teach creationism... just not in a science class. What the majority of the creation supporters don't get is that creationism isn't a science, it's a philosophy. There's nothing constructive or tangible about the theory. You can't test it in a lab, you can't observe it in nature--unless you think irreducible complexity (aka "we don't understand how this could come about, therefore it must be divinely crea…

Creationism isn't even a philosophy. Its a cynical attempt to inject religion into the classroom by masquerading as another subject. Its not 'fine to teach'; its deliberate quackery that should be rejected.

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#60

Post by mikeash »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #56
mikeash wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience (of which I unfortunately have far too much), creationists fundamentally don't understand what science is, which is why they think their ideas qualify. They simply don't grasp the depth or the quantitative nature that underlies statements like "the universe is 13 billion years old" or "humans evolved from single-celled organisms." It's basically cargo-culting popular science articles. They see someth…

Its worse than that. They're deliberately hijacking the catchphrases of science to appear legitimate, so they can insert their religious message into classrooms. Its as cynical as can be. No need to impute goodwill or mistaken good intentions; they have an agenda.

They truly believe that their opposition is doing the exact same thing. They're being underhanded because they believe that evil scientists (no doubt guided by Satan) make up clever-sounding non-God theories of the world to appear legitimate and thus push their non-religious message into classrooms.

We see this as people pushing fairy tales over truth. They see their actions as a small battle in a great war between God and the Devil.

Post reply on HN