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Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

nytimes.com

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Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#51

Post by toxican »

dimino wrote: post #32
jgrahamc wrote: post #6

I sometimes think that HN is pro-Snowden. Are there folks here who see him as less a hero more a villain?

Almost everyone I talk to in person thinks Snowden is a criminal. These people believe the US government was caught doing something it shouldn't have, but Snowden himself is a bad guy to these folks because he's seen as betraying his country. I think HN is much more pro-Snowden than the general population is, but I think the general population doesn't deny the value of exposing what the US government did. I live in D…

I guess this is kind of where I'm at with him. Although I don't really think he's a "bad guy". What he did was treason and it was "wrong", but I think in this case the ends justify the means. What he exposed was far worse than how he did it.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#52

Post by toyg »

csandreasen wrote: post #44
toyg wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> sensationalizing the issues in order to milk these documents for as long as possible That's the only way to fight politicians who know how the news-cycle work: just sit tight for a couple of weeks and anything will be forgotten. By "refreshing" every few months, they kept the issue on the agenda. Recent legislative wins in this area are almost entirely due to this strategy: in the first month after release, there w…

> We really don't know how "legitimate" those descriptions of people hacking equipment in transit were. That's actually a perfect example of what I was talking about. When Greenwald initially published the short blurb talking about intercepting routers, he didn't say who they were being used against, implying that anyone's router might be intercepted and backdoored - maybe even your own! When the full document was re…

> implying that anyone's router might be intercepted and backdoored - maybe even your own!

But that's exactly the point -- it could be. We now know that a body with almost no oversight not just can but does backdoor US-produced equipment. This is not conspiracy-theory territory anymore, it's hard fact and anyone making decisions on procurement from now on will have to deal with it, not just "hard targets" -- because you never know when you will become a "hard target" for a body with basically no oversight.

So in that sense, there is nothing wrong with Greenwald's reporting.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#53

Post by pyre »

Zach_the_Lizard wrote: post #43
jgrahamc wrote: post #6

I sometimes think that HN is pro-Snowden. Are there folks here who see him as less a hero more a villain?

> Are there folks here who see him as less a hero more a villain? I see him as neither hero nor villain. He has undertaken certain actions, such as leaking the NSA's illegal warrantless surveillance of Americans, that took a lot of courage and may result in positive changes if we really make use of what was leaked. For this he should be commended. He sacrificed his life in the US for this. Let's do what we can to mak…

> For instance, leaking how the US is spying on foreign nations, which is the whole reason for the NSA to exist.

True, but this also paints the US leaders as hypocrites. Snowden showed that the NSA was hacking Chinese computers at a time when the US was loudly proclaiming innocence while denouncing "Chinese hacking."

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#54

Post by striking »

marrs wrote: post #30
vinceguidry wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagreement is a perfectly valid reason for downvoting someone. You should expect that comments made on political topics are going to get downvoted by people who strongly disagree with you. But moderating your tone and angle of attack on such topics can go a long way towards avoiding them and can even get people who disagree with you to upvote you. Complaining about downvotes is only going to earn you more of them.

Disagreement is a perfectly valid reason for downvoting someone. No. It isn't. How would you feel if people shut you out of a discussion because they disagreed with you? If someone says something you disagree with, debate them. If they say something factually incorrect, correct them. They may even thank you for it. And guess what, they may end up changing your mind, or correcting a mistake on your part. Actively seek…

This is a common complaint from people who get downvoted, while it's been held in the community by dang and pg that people should downvote whatever they feel should be downvoted. There's no specific prescription to what can or can't be. Disagreement is often a bad reason for downvoting someone, but in this case it's disagreement with someone who is lacking facts. Also note that the guidelines note that you shouldn't comment about being downvoted.

PS. Nice, ad hominem. You want to be taken seriously? I can't tell.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#55

Post by MrScruff »

vinceguidry wrote: post #21
blumkvist wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I replied to a commenter who asked if there were people who don't think Snowden is a hero. I don't think Snowden is a hero. That's my opinion and that was my reply. The overgrown kindergarteners of HN of course disagree and they have to show it by downvoting.

Disagreement is a perfectly valid reason for downvoting someone. You should expect that comments made on political topics are going to get downvoted by people who strongly disagree with you. But moderating your tone and angle of attack on such topics can go a long way towards avoiding them and can even get people who disagree with you to upvote you. Complaining about downvotes is only going to earn you more of them.

If people use downvoting to express disagreement, that means that unpopular opinions are suppressed. I don't see that as a good thing.

Downvoting because a post is rude or factually inaccurate is fine though.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#56

Post by shit_parade2 »

nl wrote: post #23
higherpurpose wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jesus, I promised myself I would stop upvoting any NYT or BBC (usually propaganda) stories, but that's just ridiculous.

The OP should have made it clear that the NYT was quoting a book by Morell. The entire quote is as follows: “ISIS was one of the terrorist groups that learned from Snowden, and it is clear his actions played a role in the rise of ISIS,” Mr. Morell writes in “The Great War of Our Time,” offering no elaboration. I think the fact that the NYT editorialised with the comment "offering no elaboration" changes it entirely.

"Haha no elaboration, what a zinger! That'll show those swarmy conservatives", said the well off Marin county progressive as he sipped his morning smoothie and read another New York times article.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#57

Post by pyre »

blumkvist wrote: post #13
blumkvist wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't say I see him as a villain, but definitely not a hero. I hold back my judgement, because we are just too far away to know what's going on. He did expose some pretty bad practices to the general public, but asylum in Russia afterwards? Are you kidding me? That just looks super fishy to anyone with at least an ounce of critical thought in his brain. Especially in the context of the Crimea debacle.

I DON'T AGREE WITH YOU, SO I WILL DOWNVOTE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You want to know why you are downvoted? How about inflammatory statements like this:

> That just looks super fishy to anyone with at least an ounce of critical thought in his brain.

You are claiming that people who disagree with you don't have "at least an ounce of critical thought" in their brain. It's a stone's throw from name-calling. How is this intelligent discourse?

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#59

Post by jordigh »

karmacondon wrote: post #42
jgrahamc wrote: post #6

I sometimes think that HN is pro-Snowden. Are there folks here who see him as less a hero more a villain?

Edward Snowden seems like a good guy, but what he did was wrong. Betrayal and theft should not be condoned under any circumstances. He made the wrong choices and should be held accountable for them in a court of law. If someone I trusted unilaterally decided that I was breaking the law and then used that as a justification to steal documents from me and give them to journalists, I would be very upset. That's just wro…

> We have a system of rules that must be enforced equally, for the good of all of us.

Off the top of my head, here are some ways that laws have been broken:

* By refusing to sit at the back of the bus.

* By refusing to pay taxes on tea.

* By housing Jewish refugees.

* By helping runaway slaves.

* By marrying someone of a different ethnicity than your own.

* By declaring a country's independence.

* By telling people what their government was doing.

* By writing software that could be covered by patents.

Not all of these had or could have had a resolution in courts. Breaking laws is sometimes the only way to make any progress.

In conclusion, laws should be broken when they are unjust. For the good of us all.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#60

Post by Tepix »

I'm glad to see that Snowden gets to witness the changes that his revelations have initiated.

The failure of governments worldwide to protect their citizens from being spied upon by foreign intelligence services is distressing. Thanks to Snowden, everyone is aware of it and the administrations can no longer pretend to be clueless.

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