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Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

nytimes.com

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Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#21

Post by vinceguidry »

blumkvist wrote: post #20
deciplex wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we agree or disagree with you so much as you haven't made any strong statements to agree or disagree with. What do you think his fate would be now, had he released the documents then turned himself over to US authorities?

I replied to a commenter who asked if there were people who don't think Snowden is a hero. I don't think Snowden is a hero. That's my opinion and that was my reply. The overgrown kindergarteners of HN of course disagree and they have to show it by downvoting.

Disagreement is a perfectly valid reason for downvoting someone. You should expect that comments made on political topics are going to get downvoted by people who strongly disagree with you. But moderating your tone and angle of attack on such topics can go a long way towards avoiding them and can even get people who disagree with you to upvote you.

Complaining about downvotes is only going to earn you more of them.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#22

Post by mlrtime »

higherpurpose wrote: post #5
cyphunk wrote: post #3

"ISIS was one of the terrorist groups that learned from Snowden, and it is clear his actions played a role in the rise of ISIS" Despite how seriously misleading this statement is I can't help but laugh. Been rolfmao way too much since the Snowden leaks. From the .gov puppets desperate to find a angle on the debate, to the FBI desperate to counter the tides of technological evolution.... im laughing. Will probably con…

Jesus, I promised myself I would stop upvoting any NYT or BBC (usually propaganda) stories, but that's just ridiculous.

It is a quote from a book sourced in the article, not a quote from the article itself.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#23

Post by nl »

higherpurpose wrote: post #5
cyphunk wrote: post #3

"ISIS was one of the terrorist groups that learned from Snowden, and it is clear his actions played a role in the rise of ISIS" Despite how seriously misleading this statement is I can't help but laugh. Been rolfmao way too much since the Snowden leaks. From the .gov puppets desperate to find a angle on the debate, to the FBI desperate to counter the tides of technological evolution.... im laughing. Will probably con…

Jesus, I promised myself I would stop upvoting any NYT or BBC (usually propaganda) stories, but that's just ridiculous.

The OP should have made it clear that the NYT was quoting a book by Morell. The entire quote is as follows:

“ISIS was one of the terrorist groups that learned from Snowden, and it is clear his actions played a role in the rise of ISIS,” Mr. Morell writes in “The Great War of Our Time,” offering no elaboration.

I think the fact that the NYT editorialised with the comment "offering no elaboration" changes it entirely.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#24

Post by mlrtime »

blumkvist wrote: post #19
jules wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What should he have done instead?

I can't say what he should have done. I can say what I would do if I made the choice to whistleblow. I would stay and face the trial. Make a very big fuss about it. After all, I've decided to stand up for something. Something big. If I'm going to make that sacrifice, I will go all the way. I wouldn't risk casting shadows on my selfless act by going to an overly ambitious political rival of the US. Who also happens to…

You would be locked in a cell and nobody would hear from you again. You wouldn't be able to communicate your defense to the outside world, you'd be much much worse off.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#25

Post by csandreasen »

jgrahamc wrote: post #6

I sometimes think that HN is pro-Snowden. Are there folks here who see him as less a hero more a villain?

It doesn't seem to be a very popular opinion on HN/Reddit/etc. I've noticed a couple other people besides myself, although casting it as hero/villain is a bit of a simplification - I think what he did was reckless and I don't think he's been forthcoming about his motives. I've seen a lot of people downplay the comparison between Snowden's actions and Manning's actions. As I see it, Manning took thousands of sensitive documents that he didn't read and handed them over to Julian Assange, but on the hand Snowden took thousands of sensitive documents that he didn't read and handed them over to Glenn Greenwald. Personally I think the biggest difference is that Manning owned up to what he[1] did, but Snowden washed his hands of all responsibility and insists that any harm that may have come from his actions is the fault of the media, neglecting the fact that he was responsible for the media having those documents to begin with.

Then there's the issue of the reporters he chose to give the documents to, who I think have been sensationalizing the issues in order to milk these documents for as long as possible. If Snowden had stopped at the first document that was released, I'd probably have a different opinion. It seems like just about every release following has been purely about legitimate foreign intelligence operations, with some language thrown in to say "there is no indication as to how many Americans or innocent civilians have been targeted under this program," with the implication that you, your family and loved ones may have been spied on by the NSA. It's a scare tactic to bring in more viewers and more advertising dollars. Every time a news outlet does actually reveal groups actually being targeted (like Russia, China, Al Qaeda, etc.), I tend to think that it's exactly the kind of people I want the NSA to be spying on.

[1] Preemptively: yes, I am aware of the Bradley/Chelsea thing. No, I am not trying to make a statement. At the time that Pvt Manning plead guilty, he was known as Bradley. Now she is known as Chelsea, and it just gets confusing trying to figure out which pronoun to use when referring to events in the past.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#26

Post by toyg »

pluma wrote: post #16
blumkvist wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't say I see him as a villain, but definitely not a hero. I hold back my judgement, because we are just too far away to know what's going on. He did expose some pretty bad practices to the general public, but asylum in Russia afterwards? Are you kidding me? That just looks super fishy to anyone with at least an ounce of critical thought in his brain. Especially in the context of the Crimea debacle.

He only had to take asylum in Russia because the US revoked his passport and prevented him from going anywhere else. Russia was never intended to be more than a stop-gap. Considering how disgustingly subservient all of Europe has been to bend over backwards to the US (e.g. forcing the landing of a presidential plane because someone suspected it was carrying Snowden) you can't really blame him. Russia is the only coun…

> and would even refuse to co-operate simply to flip them off

Indeed -- the decision on Snowden came around the same time Obama was getting ready to invade Syria.

Putin is a de-facto old-school dictator, but on this he did everything right. I wish he'd completed the job by sneaking Snowden to Ecuador via submarine, but I can understand why he didn't -- he can play that card next time he desperately needs a propaganda boost.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#27

Post by blumkvist »

pluma wrote: post #16
blumkvist wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't say I see him as a villain, but definitely not a hero. I hold back my judgement, because we are just too far away to know what's going on. He did expose some pretty bad practices to the general public, but asylum in Russia afterwards? Are you kidding me? That just looks super fishy to anyone with at least an ounce of critical thought in his brain. Especially in the context of the Crimea debacle.

He only had to take asylum in Russia because the US revoked his passport and prevented him from going anywhere else. Russia was never intended to be more than a stop-gap. Considering how disgustingly subservient all of Europe has been to bend over backwards to the US (e.g. forcing the landing of a presidential plane because someone suspected it was carrying Snowden) you can't really blame him. Russia is the only coun…

Yeah, I don't really believe in coincidences.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#28

Post by blumkvist »

mlrtime wrote: post #24
blumkvist wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't say what he should have done. I can say what I would do if I made the choice to whistleblow. I would stay and face the trial. Make a very big fuss about it. After all, I've decided to stand up for something. Something big. If I'm going to make that sacrifice, I will go all the way. I wouldn't risk casting shadows on my selfless act by going to an overly ambitious political rival of the US. Who also happens to…

You would be locked in a cell and nobody would hear from you again. You wouldn't be able to communicate your defense to the outside world, you'd be much much worse off.

It's much more complicated than that, but I'm not really interested in discussing this further.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#29

Post by csandreasen »

pluma wrote: post #16
blumkvist wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't say I see him as a villain, but definitely not a hero. I hold back my judgement, because we are just too far away to know what's going on. He did expose some pretty bad practices to the general public, but asylum in Russia afterwards? Are you kidding me? That just looks super fishy to anyone with at least an ounce of critical thought in his brain. Especially in the context of the Crimea debacle.

He only had to take asylum in Russia because the US revoked his passport and prevented him from going anywhere else. Russia was never intended to be more than a stop-gap. Considering how disgustingly subservient all of Europe has been to bend over backwards to the US (e.g. forcing the landing of a presidential plane because someone suspected it was carrying Snowden) you can't really blame him. Russia is the only coun…

This is a myth that keeps getting repeated. The US government didn't revoke his passport leaving him stranded in Russia, they revoked his passport the day before he left Hong Kong [1]. He traveled to Russia on what turned out to be an invalid travel document issued by the Ecuadorian embassy in London [2] (same one that Julian Assange is holed up in).

[1] http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-source-nsa-leaker-snowdens...

[2] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/02/ecuador-rafael-...

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#30

Post by marrs »

vinceguidry wrote: post #21
blumkvist wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I replied to a commenter who asked if there were people who don't think Snowden is a hero. I don't think Snowden is a hero. That's my opinion and that was my reply. The overgrown kindergarteners of HN of course disagree and they have to show it by downvoting.

Disagreement is a perfectly valid reason for downvoting someone. You should expect that comments made on political topics are going to get downvoted by people who strongly disagree with you. But moderating your tone and angle of attack on such topics can go a long way towards avoiding them and can even get people who disagree with you to upvote you. Complaining about downvotes is only going to earn you more of them.

    Disagreement is a perfectly valid reason for downvoting someone.
No. It isn't.

How would you feel if people shut you out of a discussion because they disagreed with you?

If someone says something you disagree with, debate them. If they say something factually incorrect, correct them. They may even thank you for it. And guess what, they may end up changing your mind, or correcting a mistake on your part.

Actively seeking to censor somebody for having a different perspective on something is frankly abhorant.

I find it ironic that this kind of behaviour is being encouraged in this thread of all. Snowden's actions will prove to be a giant waste of effort if your kind get their way.

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