The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills • Hacker News Board

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#241

Post by cryoshon » Wed, May 13, 2015, 3:32 PM UTC

paganel wrote: post #121

cmelbye wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In older stories, sure. But the "action hero" died a while ago. Have you not noticed the rise of the weak male lead in movies/TV/commercials? It's hugely prevalent in romantic comedies, but even TV shows like Modern Family (bumbling Phil and razor-sharp Claire) depict archetypes that are becoming quite common. The formula is a charming yet incompetent male lead who's mainly driven by sex, paired with a strong, capabl…

> But the "action hero" died a while ago. As a 30-something guy the main issue I had with Avengers 2 (just to pick the latest mainstream action movie example) was the blatant product placement which had no logic (like driving an Audi convertible in the midst of a gunfight scene). Plus, there was too much talking, I almost felt asleep mid-way through the movie. I'm not a comic-books aficionado, so I didn't particularl…

The other great product placement scene was when Bruce Banner was listening to classical music on his Beats headphones.

Beats headphones are overpriced, over-bassed crap with a gross form factor and uncomfortable cups to boot. This is said by anyone with any kind of taste for finer audio.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#242

Post by bakhy » Wed, May 13, 2015, 3:33 PM UTC

mkr-hn wrote: post #232

bakhy wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You fail to grasp one crucial distinction - patriarchy is not a term that labels all men. It is a system. The crimes of patriarchy are not automatically the fault of all men. It is perfectly possible to be a man and against patriarchy (you're speaking with one right now, actually). As for "reprogramming society" - that's just spreading FUD. Society is not a piece of stone, it changes constantly. And far from it that…

The word is easy to misunderstand. I usually just avoid it entirely and discuss the symptoms instead. Most people agree that what patriarchy is is something that needs changing, so it's silly to stick with a word that so reliably muddies what should be an uncontroversial conversation.

Well, it should not be easy to misunderstand an attack on patriarchy as an attack on all men. That misunderstanding makes no sense, unless a person has certain rhetorical goals...

Generally, your approach is smart, but topics like this have to stir up emotion. I believe it is completely impossible to have a meaningful discussion about such topics, which affect people's lives, without getting emotional. I guess only people who are completely unaffected by the problem at hand can have the luxury of objective distance...

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#243

Post by erroneousfunk » Wed, May 13, 2015, 3:38 PM UTC

ebfe wrote: post #186

louhike wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They did not win, they just managed to be listened to. Women still have more difficulties than men. And telling that is not saying that men do not have problems.

That's actually not true. Compared to men, women: * Live longer * Are less likely to kill themselves * Are less likely to be the victim of violence * Are better protected under the law if they are victimized * Are less likely to be homeless (and receive more support if they are) * Receive shorter sentences for the same crimes * Are less likely to be victims of police brutality (the disparity between men and women is…

You're going to need citations for a lot of those statistics... http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024233028

http://www.pnas.org/content/109/41/16474

You could also make a similar list of complaints about the "advantages that men have," which are obviously numerous. Everyone has it bad.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#244

Post by mkr-hn » Wed, May 13, 2015, 3:46 PM UTC

bakhy wrote: post #242

mkr-hn wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word is easy to misunderstand. I usually just avoid it entirely and discuss the symptoms instead. Most people agree that what patriarchy is is something that needs changing, so it's silly to stick with a word that so reliably muddies what should be an uncontroversial conversation.

Well, it should not be easy to misunderstand an attack on patriarchy as an attack on all men. That misunderstanding makes no sense, unless a person has certain rhetorical goals... Generally, your approach is smart, but topics like this have to stir up emotion. I believe it is completely impossible to have a meaningful discussion about such topics, which affect people's lives, without getting emotional. I guess only p…

Much of the time, I can say "that thing you just agreed with is the feminist position on patriarchy," and it's like a lightbulb goes off in their head. People get ideas about words and concepts because their early exposure to them was negative. Give them a more accurate concept, then reintroduce the term.

It's really no different from how people assume the fem- in feminism means it's all about putting women ahead of men. I avoid calling myself feminist for the same reason I don't generally use the word patriarchy. Avoiding confusing terms in early conversations is a simple matter of effective communication.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#245

Post by bakhy » Wed, May 13, 2015, 3:47 PM UTC

mattlutze wrote: post #231

bakhy wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's what I get... I try really hard to keep it civil, to address your comments honestly (even though I was tempted to ask you if you ever met any people, so disconnected from reality your ideas seemed), and in return I get this pathetic piece of ad hominem. Shame on you.

> Even if they were not beneath him , an ideal man in patriarchy simply wouldn't be bothered with such menial tasks. This can only naturally produce such a trope (Emphasis mine) I made an observation given keying words and phrases you used. I've no doubt your description came from an honestly held belief. Describing the ideal male in a patriarchal society to find raising a family or keeping a household to be menial a…

You're really just trolling, are you? :)

I already answered this - all systems come with ideals, myths, additional narratives that serve to explain why things are the way they are. And so patriarchy comes with the concept of the ideal man and woman. This is not something I invented.

Patriarchy is not merely a value-neutral division of labor, or whatever your cold impersonal description was meant to convey. A key component is placing greater value on men, and hence bestowing them with various privileges, but also obligations, expectations.

Finally, even if patriarchy did not insist on male incompetence in the house, the very fact that men never do housework, and are not even allowed to do it unless they want to belittle themselves before others, means that it is very easy to imagine a Real Man (TM) stumbling around during babysitting.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#246

Post by WalterSear » Wed, May 13, 2015, 3:48 PM UTC

curun1r wrote: post #32

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #10

The demonization of all things male has had a pernicious effect on boys and men over the last 20 years. I've seen it negatively impact friends and, worse, my own boys. Oone of the best things I ever did was cut the live TV feed and the commercials that only show men as drunken idiots, drunken leches, or bumbling idiots (notice: drunken and idiots is a repeating theme). As a society, we need to come to terms with masc…

I think you're right about society's role, but I see a much more pernicious tendency that I think damages boys and, eventually, men. Society teaches boys to bottle up their feelings. "Be a man" means be strong, and don't show emotion. Crying is a sign of weakness. And god forbid you talk about your emotions...that's a female thing. But the thing is, those activities are what allow us to be vulnerable and what allow u…

The problem is that it quite often isn't actually safe for men to be vulnerable, or share painful feelings yet.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#247

Post by erroneousfunk » Wed, May 13, 2015, 3:49 PM UTC

normloman wrote: post #224

parennoob wrote: post #8

I think this article puts the euphemism 'social perfectionism' on the subtle, and in some cases blatant anti-male stance that pervades US and UK society today. Sports teams fall over themselves to wear pink for Mother's Day, hardly anyone celebrates Father's Day. [1] Time Magazine publishes an article on how "Men are Obsolete". [2] Politicians routinely trumpet the 77% pay gap despite it being "more complicated than…

Men aren't killing themselves because nobody celebrates fathers day. And they're not killing themselves because sitcom dads are morons. They're killing themselves because they feel they have failed the people around them, and can't live with the shame. This pressure to succeed was not invented by feminists, and has existed for many years. Both women and men unconsciously perpetuate a toxic idea of masculinity which k…

And for every bumbling idiot dad on a television, there are 10 other shows with a lead male character and an attractive, but not-all-that-helpful supporting female. And don't even get me started about shows like "Say Yes to the Dress" and "Bridezillas" :-p It goes both ways.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#248

Post by rrss1122 » Wed, May 13, 2015, 3:53 PM UTC

curun1r wrote: post #32

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #10

The demonization of all things male has had a pernicious effect on boys and men over the last 20 years. I've seen it negatively impact friends and, worse, my own boys. Oone of the best things I ever did was cut the live TV feed and the commercials that only show men as drunken idiots, drunken leches, or bumbling idiots (notice: drunken and idiots is a repeating theme). As a society, we need to come to terms with masc…

I think you're right about society's role, but I see a much more pernicious tendency that I think damages boys and, eventually, men. Society teaches boys to bottle up their feelings. "Be a man" means be strong, and don't show emotion. Crying is a sign of weakness. And god forbid you talk about your emotions...that's a female thing. But the thing is, those activities are what allow us to be vulnerable and what allow u…

I feel like the notion that society teaches boys to bottle up their feelings is more of a myth the internet perpetuates than a reflection of reality.

We don't send these messages to boys. The messages we send is that they should be ashamed just for being boys, and atone for the sins (actual and perceived) of their fathers by being subservient and expecting to be shot down when they try to assert themselves.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#249

Post by hoopd » Wed, May 13, 2015, 3:54 PM UTC

bakhy wrote: post #240

hoopd wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What sucks is if a men's movement has to accept the same B.S. underpinnings as feminism because feminists can't handle others disagreeing with them. The whole patriarchy critique is a biased philosophical position of a particular social movement. If you guys like it, fine, but you don't get to force it upon others.

Yeah, exactly, forcing things upon others. Or, as people usually call this, a conversation :D You are being a hypocrite right now. You may disagree, but you may not accuse me of forcing anything just because I said something you disagree with.

You could put a minimal amount of effort into charitable readings of the comments of others.

Feminism has gone so far as to brand the men's rights movement a hate group, they've gone out of their way to characterize men's rights books as rape-apologizing hate speech, and in some cases[0][1] have actively shut down talks given from what is basically the MRA viewpoint.

This is clearly coercion so I feel justified in saying feminism is attempting to "force" the men's rights movement to develop in a certain way.

Am I saying you're personally trying to force me to do anything right now? That wasn't my intention. As for your view that we should all get together and blame the patriarchy, allow me to rephrase myself for clarity: thanks, but no thanks.

[0] - http://metronews.ca/news/ottawa/1000093/protesters-shut-down... [1] - http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/robyn-urback-move-...

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#250

Post by toyg » Wed, May 13, 2015, 3:57 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #164

toyg wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>People frequently do! Do they? HackerNews search results: * "Misandry": 2 * "Misandrist": 0 * "Misogyny": 59 * "Misogynist": 23 Most people will have to look up "the opposite of misogyny" to find "misandry", and that's telling in itself. I do understand why this happens (misogyny has always been a culturally-recognized problem with real repercussions, the opposite not so much), but it still happens and it does unbal…

I'm not sure those figures are in any way relevant to anything, and when I said "People often do!" I wasn't referring to HN in a vacuum.

Of course, I was just taking HN as a random sample, to show that even in our highly-educated, male-dominated geek community, people are quite familiar with one term but not the other. This is significant and relevant to the argument, imho.