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The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

mosaicscience.com

231–240 of 359 posts

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#231
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It feels like there's a lot of projection going on here.

Well, that's what I get... I try really hard to keep it civil, to address your comments honestly (even though I was tempted to ask you if you ever met any people, so disconnected from reality your ideas seemed), and in return I get this pathetic piece of ad hominem. Shame on you.

> Even if they were not beneath him, an ideal man in patriarchy simply wouldn't be bothered with such menial tasks. This can only naturally produce such a trope (Emphasis mine)

I made an observation given keying words and phrases you used. I've no doubt your description came from an honestly held belief. Describing the ideal male in a patriarchal society to find raising a family or keeping a household to be menial and beneath him, indicates a viewpoint based on disrespecting women and considering them less, rather than an illogical division of family and social duties based on physical gender differences.

Your umbrage is misplaced.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#232
post #156
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using the word "Patriarchy" unironically gives away the fact you don't care about mens problems, because you're automatically blaming men for these problems. You live in an age of abundance now, but 50 or so years ago you might be singing a different tune, and you can't reprogram society overnight without causing serious harm.

You fail to grasp one crucial distinction - patriarchy is not a term that labels all men. It is a system. The crimes of patriarchy are not automatically the fault of all men. It is perfectly possible to be a man and against patriarchy (you're speaking with one right now, actually). As for "reprogramming society" - that's just spreading FUD. Society is not a piece of stone, it changes constantly. And far from it that…

The word is easy to misunderstand. I usually just avoid it entirely and discuss the symptoms instead. Most people agree that what patriarchy is is something that needs changing, so it's silly to stick with a word that so reliably muddies what should be an uncontroversial conversation.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#233
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>These prejudice are a product of patriarchy. No. E.g. The aggressively anti-male prejudice baked into domestic violence law is entirely the work of feminists. There are many other similar prejudices now. So it's simply dishonest to pretend that feminism has had no influence on family law, education, or many other areas where boys and men are struggling.

It's also dishonest to put such words in my mouth, when they were never said ;) The disconnect, IMO, stems from the fact that women are fighting, and men are not. Or, perhaps better said, men are just beginning to frame an opposition. Women have stood up, organized, and brought attention to their problems (which were, without any doubt, seriously greater than men's), and achieved many victories. Standard democratic p…

What sucks is if a men's movement has to accept the same B.S. underpinnings as feminism because feminists can't handle others disagreeing with them.

The whole patriarchy critique is a biased philosophical position of a particular social movement. If you guys like it, fine, but you don't get to force it upon others.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#234
post #126
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at some of the stories from the media. Some airlines will not allow males sit next to unaccompanied children. A theme park bans single males from bird watching, "in case they are predators". Female sexual assaults are disgusting while male sexual assaults are funny, to most people. If a little girl has a problem, it is immediately attended to, whereas if a little boy has a problem, he is told to "be a man and su…

Feminism is cool whereas MRA is not. Because MRA has an absolutely horrific public image. If they concentrated on topics like visitation rights in divorce they'd be well appreciated - Fathers 4 Justice[1] is/was an organsiation that does exactly that and received positive coverage back in the mid-2000s (sadly, according to Wikipedia they've since gotten worse) By contrast, almost every MRA conversation I've ever seen…

Didn't feminism have similar beginnings? It was a lot more angry, and it was justified. That anger often tipped over into unwarranted hatred and generalization, but that doesn't mean the anger was unjustified.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#235

The demonization of all things male has had a pernicious effect on boys and men over the last 20 years. I've seen it negatively impact friends and, worse, my own boys. Oone of the best things I ever did was cut the live TV feed and the commercials that only show men as drunken idiots, drunken leches, or bumbling idiots (notice: drunken and idiots is a repeating theme). As a society, we need to come to terms with masc…

"In every country in the world..." Obviously including extreme male centered societies like Iran and Saudi Arabia "middle-aged men are most at risk" So obviously not a recent attack on male children. Indeed the problem is greatest among people who are older then the average poster to this thread let alone their often hypothetical children. There is obviously a serious problem here, apparently related to age, and inst…

How do you know the average age of the people in this thread?

From the linked article - "In 2013, if you were a man between the ages of 20 and 49 who’d died, the most likely cause was not assault nor car crash nor drug abuse nor heart attack, but a decision that you didn’t wish to live any more".

Dismissing the people who try to talk about these issues and branding everyone 'MRAs' seems like an attempt to kill any discussion, normally by those who cannot argue with the statistics.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#236
Crying IS a sign of weakness and immaturity. Ever wondered why children cry more than adults?

We're turning into a bunch of sissy, "touchy feely" men in the west - it's enough to drive anyone to suicide. This whole political correctness thing has gone too far - and I say that as a minority myself. Yeah, so I'll get downvoted - so what?! - Newsflash - there are more important things in life than points on HN!

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#237
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've deleted this comment based on replies, I may have had wrong information : )

You can try, but every study I've seen has found that men are favored in contested custody proceedings. Its true that women are more likely to end up with custody, but that appears to because they are vastly more likely to seek custody.

You seem to think men can just walk down to the "Fathers Who Want Custody Office" and declare "Give me form #1 please! I'll have it filled out and be with my child again by this afternoon!"

What is ignored when people make the "There's no bias in family court! Fathers just don't seek custody!" claim:

1. Who gets automatic custody? Custody of children born out of wedlock is automatically given to the mother. In most states custody of children in divorced families also goes automatically to the mother. In both cases the father must undergo a lengthy and expensive legal process (depending on how willing the mother is to allow him access - the father is at the mercy of the mother to allow him to be in his children's lives). It is then the father's "privilege" to sue for custody.

2. The price of seeking custody for men - fathers must pony up the cash, time, and emotional expense for:

* Hiring a family practice lawyer (thousands of dollars) * Paying for a custody mediator (hundreds of dollars) * Paying for supervised visitation (hundreds of dollars) * Custody screenings (hundreds-thousands of dollars) * Psychological evaluation (hundreds of dollars and the risk of thrusting oneself into the state psychological system) * Drug testing (massive invasion of privacy).

3. While the father is busy jumping through these hoops and spending the required thousands of dollars, he is also expected to be paying child support (and alimony if he was married). If he fails to do so he will be jailed, have his state professional and drivers licenses revoked, and face public humiliation as a "dead beat dad".

4. Law surrounding domestic and sexual violence make it extremely easy for mothers to accuse fathers with a complete lack of evidence. This is extremely common ( http://www.saveservices.org/camp/faam-2011/false-accusations... ). Now the father is fighting a criminal charge while fighting for custody of his children. Thanks to VAWA/The Duluth Model, even with no evidence he will be arrested and charged.

Lets take a look at what it really means to be a father facing the family court system:

You are unable to see your child for months or even years, yet you are sending 25%+ of your income every month to their mother - the person who is preventing you from being in your kids lives. You are expected to continue sending these payments, while opening your life to rigorous inspection from the state and funding your custody battle. You are attending mediation and court hearings while holding down a full-time job - a job that if you lose, you will be unable to make your payments and end up a felon in child support arrears. During all of this your risk of being falsely accused of domestic or sexual violence is increased exponentially.

When people like yourself try and spin the horrific situation that men face in the family court system as "men just don't want custody" it makes my blood boil. You ignore the cost of the process, you ignore the unequal laws surrounding parenthood and reproduction, and you ignore the normalized alienation of fathers from their children that is increasing exponentially and having a disastrous effect on society.

If you are still confused about how family court works, I invite you to watch the documentary Divorce Corp. and get a more accurate understanding about how fathers are routinely alienated from their children by vindictive mothers with full support from the state.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#238
post #225
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also dishonest to put such words in my mouth, when they were never said ;) The disconnect, IMO, stems from the fact that women are fighting, and men are not. Or, perhaps better said, men are just beginning to frame an opposition. Women have stood up, organized, and brought attention to their problems (which were, without any doubt, seriously greater than men's), and achieved many victories. Standard democratic p…

> If some women and feminists are blind to the problems of men, is that really a surprise? Yes, honestly, though perhaps it shouldn't. The point of feminism was to bring equality to the sexes. In places where it has been successful, to see it continue to push forward as a way of achieving victories for women causes spite and backlash. I have low hopes for a real men's version of feminism to form, for exactly the reas…

I agree with a lot of what you say. But waiting for someone else to fight your fight never worked for anybody. It's just the way it is, people have a hard time putting themselves in others' shoes, and everyone naturally tends to place greater emphasis on their own problems. And then there's the fact that problems women face still exist.

But for me, the problem with MRAs is not that they are "unmanly". They remind me of something like a slave, who sees another former slave now walking free, and instead of now demanding his own freedom, he fights for the other guy to become a slave again...

You are probably right, MRAs probably will be seen as pussies and belittled, but their response, IMO, should be to embrace it. Yes, I am a pussy. If that's what an intelligent, reflective man is, then let it be - I am a pussy. Kind of like the relationship between feminists and the word "bitch". And that is for some men one hard pill to swallow.

Now that feminism has won a lot of victories, men are in a position that they are still burdened by patriarchic expectations, but no longer enjoy the corresponding privileges. The right answer is to fight the expectations, IMO.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#239
Social perfectionism? Maybe just having a spouse like Livvy was enough to do it... geez. People who are evil, uncaring, and selfish can also cause others to feel depressed.

I remember reading a strange question on Quora once. A woman was trying to figure out why her husband was always drunk and suicidal. "He used to be the perfect man! I don't understand why he's acting like this now." Of course, in the next paragraph, she mentions that it all started right after she had cheated on him. The disconnect between her behavior and her failure to recognize its consequences was staggering.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#240
post #233
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also dishonest to put such words in my mouth, when they were never said ;) The disconnect, IMO, stems from the fact that women are fighting, and men are not. Or, perhaps better said, men are just beginning to frame an opposition. Women have stood up, organized, and brought attention to their problems (which were, without any doubt, seriously greater than men's), and achieved many victories. Standard democratic p…

What sucks is if a men's movement has to accept the same B.S. underpinnings as feminism because feminists can't handle others disagreeing with them. The whole patriarchy critique is a biased philosophical position of a particular social movement. If you guys like it, fine, but you don't get to force it upon others.

Yeah, exactly, forcing things upon others. Or, as people usually call this, a conversation :D You are being a hypocrite right now. You may disagree, but you may not accuse me of forcing anything just because I said something you disagree with.
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