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The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

mosaicscience.com

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Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#201

Post by barry-cotter »

Dewie3 wrote: post #146
barry-cotter wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am proud to have been the first to downvote him but I upvoted his response to you because you're wrong. I don't consider the time engaging him would take to be worth it but I disagree with it. I'm sympathetic to some of what some MRAs say but think some of them are vile people of the same ilk as Amanda Marcotte but on the other side. But the most important thing about MRA is that it's a movement doomed to fail beca…

> As such lift heavy, Is this supposed to be a joke? That's really the best advice to deal with this situation that you have? Whenever I see "start lifting", I can't decide if they really believe in it as a magic bullet or if they're taking the piss.

"This situation" is insoluble. As a man you just have to deal with it. That is all there is. Maybe one day family law in the USA and UK will be less one-sided but it will still be the case that no one gives a fucj about men qua men. You just have to keep going.

Run, lift, meditate, keep a gratitude journal but just keep going.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#202

Post by forgottenpass »

DanBC wrote: post #154

Vaguely frustrating that this thread had been taken over by MRAs. Suicide is complex. Suicide is common - it's a leading cause of death for some men. We need to make it acceptable for men to seek help when they are suicidal. This does not mean that we need men to talk and talk and talk about their intimate feelings. But we do need to make it so men can say "I'm not having a good day" and have someone else say "is it…

Vaguely frustrating that this thread had been taken over by MRAs.

Incredibly frustrating that what started as an OK discussion about male social experiences when I went to bed, now has people willing to fundamentally misrepresent the tenor of conversation because it doesn't occur on their terms. You yourself define "MRAs" as those saying "women did it" which didn't seem to be the majority here. (unless not explicitly saying "this is only the fault of men" is equivalent to blaming women)

I'm sure the tide will change though, as people (ie You) seem to be rolling in wanting to have the same go-nowhere internet arguments again and again rather than discuss things on terms outside their comfortable narratives. You're just priming the pot for the conversations you deride. Thanks buddy!

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#203

Post by BurningFrog »

sukilot wrote: post #73
alextgordon wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everybody's brain is wired differently (and infused with a different cocktail of chemicals). For me, controlling my emotions brings a sense of inner calm -- happiness. There is nothing better than thinking with a clear head, without being dogged by feelings of anger, anxiety, jealousy, fear or sadness.

Often happiness, thrill, arousal is better than thinking with a clear head.

They feel better in the moment, but result in dumber decisions. So they're a lot like alcohol.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#204

Post by mason240 »

GhotiFish wrote: post #11
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #10

The demonization of all things male has had a pernicious effect on boys and men over the last 20 years. I've seen it negatively impact friends and, worse, my own boys. Oone of the best things I ever did was cut the live TV feed and the commercials that only show men as drunken idiots, drunken leches, or bumbling idiots (notice: drunken and idiots is a repeating theme). As a society, we need to come to terms with masc…

I don't understand this. In most stories, arn't protagonists primarily male? Arn't they typically courageous, or intelligent, or unyielding, or strong, or determined? I don't understand.

In more stories villains are male.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#205

Post by benihana »

ebfe wrote: post #186
louhike wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They did not win, they just managed to be listened to. Women still have more difficulties than men. And telling that is not saying that men do not have problems.

That's actually not true. Compared to men, women: * Live longer * Are less likely to kill themselves * Are less likely to be the victim of violence * Are better protected under the law if they are victimized * Are less likely to be homeless (and receive more support if they are) * Receive shorter sentences for the same crimes * Are less likely to be victims of police brutality (the disparity between men and women is…

>Everything else being equal, men face far greater issues than their female peers.

This sentiment is part of the problem in my opinion. How shitty you have it isn't a damn competition. I think we should be working to remove these systemic issues for everyone, rather than keeping score on who has had the more challenging game of life.

Edit: I was thinking about your comment. You bring up a legitimate list of concerns that I happen to agree with you on. I just don't really care for the way it was delivered. I think you could win a lot more support if you presented the argument less as a competition for who has it worse, and more as a way to illuminate issues for people who may not be aware or who may have not given these issues much though.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#206

Post by hoopd »

Nursie wrote: post #165
DanBC wrote: post #154

Vaguely frustrating that this thread had been taken over by MRAs. Suicide is complex. Suicide is common - it's a leading cause of death for some men. We need to make it acceptable for men to seek help when they are suicidal. This does not mean that we need men to talk and talk and talk about their intimate feelings. But we do need to make it so men can say "I'm not having a good day" and have someone else say "is it…

>> But we do need to make it so men can say "I'm not having a good day" and have someone else say "is it the kind of thing you want to talk to me about?" And you know what? This is exactly what my most outspoken-feminist female friend does. The MRAs have the wrong of things IMHO, and I'm glad I have good friends.

I suppose I'll get labled an MRA for this but I've found feminists to be the absolutely least supportive people in my life over the past X years.

When somebody has an ideological belief that you're luckier than they are it's difficult for them to feel empathy for you.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#207

Post by normloman »

mreiland wrote: post #122
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #10

The demonization of all things male has had a pernicious effect on boys and men over the last 20 years. I've seen it negatively impact friends and, worse, my own boys. Oone of the best things I ever did was cut the live TV feed and the commercials that only show men as drunken idiots, drunken leches, or bumbling idiots (notice: drunken and idiots is a repeating theme). As a society, we need to come to terms with masc…

> As a society, we need to come to terms with masculinity. That means men need to be able to be masculine without being domineering and without being castigated. You're doing the exact same thing you're complaining about. This is a social problem towards men, it is not a mans problem they need to solve for themselves. The issue has nothing to do with masculinity and everything to do with the current crop of overly lo…

But feminists aren't the ones enforcing a rigid version of masculinity that discourages men from talking about their problems.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#208

Post by balabaster »

It's an interesting read. What I've taken from it and from my own experience is that even though the Confucian scholar may be wise and poor, largely he is happy. My experience in life has been that the times I've been the happiest are the times when I've had the least and haven't been chasing power and wealth. The times when I've been most unhappy are those when by and large I would have outwardly been considered the most successful.

As they say, money... and by extension, power, cannot buy happiness... and for all the retorts to that: The illusion of happiness doesn't count as happiness. The illusion is just a distraction from your own inner turmoil... and it will only distract you for so long before you realize that for all your wealth and power, true happiness lies within.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#209

Post by BurningFrog »

bakhy wrote: post #101
M8 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"we are kinda equal" Which gender legally gets the kids, house and alimony in +90% of divorces?

We could start listing examples of injustices, each one of us could find them, and we would only get farther from finding any solution, or farther from just having a meaningful discussion. I am not negating that there are prejudice against men. I simply wish to point out the obvious - these prejudice are a product of patriarchy. It was not feminism that painted the picture of the man as incompetent parent. It is a ve…

> I simply wish to point out the obvious - these prejudice are a product of patriarchy.

Since no one can explain what "patriarchy" even is in a concrete way, this is very far from obvious.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#210

Post by randrews »

lazyant wrote: post #198
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #10

The demonization of all things male has had a pernicious effect on boys and men over the last 20 years. I've seen it negatively impact friends and, worse, my own boys. Oone of the best things I ever did was cut the live TV feed and the commercials that only show men as drunken idiots, drunken leches, or bumbling idiots (notice: drunken and idiots is a repeating theme). As a society, we need to come to terms with masc…

Yes, name a tv show where the man is the idiot and the woman the smart or normal one (all of them). Name a sitcom where the man is smart and the woman an idiot (none of them, and 'Married with children' doesn't count, they were all idiots. Of course I'm not advocating portraying women as idiots).

Parks and Recreation. Ron Swanson is an excellent masculine role model.
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