Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish • Hacker News Board

Re: Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish

#81

Post by mikeash » Mon, May 11, 2015, 4:50 PM UTC

Jun8 wrote: post #45

wehadfun wrote: post #29

Suprise that no market their computers as "crapware free".

I don't think one should be surprised. At least two reasons can be given: 1) "crapware" is not well-defined for all users, some utility that absolutely is annoying and unnecessary to medium to advanced users may be found useful by complete novices, e.g. the prototypical "your grandma". 2) The bigger cause is, of course, affiliate money. Companies have little backlash to crapware other than perhaps some lost sales due…

Regarding (1), has any computer manufacturer ever installed anything we might call "crapware" that anyone ever found to actually be useful? Not something that grandma thinks is useful, but something that is actually useful to grandma (not quite the same thing!).

The rest is totally right, though. For any behavior by a company that seems to do more harm than good, you can usually trace it back to some decision-maker who is rewarded for the good parts but is not responsible for the bad parts. If your decisions cause $1 in gain for your department and $2 in loss for another department, many companies aren't smart enough to do anything but reward you and punish the other department.

Re: Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish

#82

Post by tokenizerrr » Mon, May 11, 2015, 4:53 PM UTC

rubbingalcohol wrote: post #46

lessthunk wrote: post #24

.. reinstall any computer you get from scratch; Firmware Bios spying is of course much harder to get rid from.

Many of these computers don't even come with OS reinstallation media. They tend to have recovery partitions on the hard drives which will only restore the computer to its initial spyware-ridden state. I downvoted your comment because of your implication that spyware wouldn't be a problem if only everyone were as sophisticated as you.

You can just reacquire the installation media from elsewhere and reuse the serial key.

Re: Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish

#83

Post by btilly » Mon, May 11, 2015, 4:53 PM UTC

bradleyjg wrote: post #55

A year or eighteen months from now look for a settlement in the case. Each of the affected class members will be entitled to a $5 discount on an anti-virus product plus up to $25 if they can provide detailed documentation showing actual economic losses. Any money left over after the coupons and payments are made will be given to a charity hand picked by the plaintiff's attorney. There will also be injunctive relief i…

This is true, but do you know why it happens?

The US has a protection against double jeopardy. If you've been sued once for something, you cannot be sued again (and again, and again) for the same thing. In most cases this is a good thing. It means that once the case is done, it is really done.

But companies have learned how to take advantage of it. If they think they are going to have to fight a class action lawsuit that they are likely to lose, THE COMPANY will go to some lawyers, and say, "If you bring this lawsuit against us, we will cooperate fully, cave in quickly, and we'll settle on modest terms."

Said lawyers have every incentive to cooperate. It is easy money, and the more reliable they are about following through, the more of this kind of work they can get.

And companies have every incentive to do this. Because occasionally class action lawsuits happen that the company did not set up like this. That's when you get huge claims like the ones that took down big tobacco, or the hot coffee lawsuit that McDonalds faced a few years back.

Re: Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish

#84

Post by mhurron » Mon, May 11, 2015, 4:54 PM UTC

pavs wrote: post #73

mhurron wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 18 months no one will remember this. Honestly, corporations face basically no repercussions from customers because of doing stupid or outright malicious things.

people who actually cared about the superfish incident will remember this, and thats where it counts and where it will hurt. Everyday joe couldn't care less about superfish.

Lenovo doesn't care that your individual security minded person had an issue with it, Lenovo cares that their volume purchasers continue to purchase in volume. They weren't impacted and they don't care.

There are basically no long term downsides to Lenovo for doing what they did.

Re: Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish

#85

Post by xorcist » Mon, May 11, 2015, 4:54 PM UTC

pavs wrote: post #73

mhurron wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 18 months no one will remember this. Honestly, corporations face basically no repercussions from customers because of doing stupid or outright malicious things.

people who actually cared about the superfish incident will remember this, and thats where it counts and where it will hurt. Everyday joe couldn't care less about superfish.

It's a relevant question whether enough people care. The Sony rootkit scandal was (almost) as bad as this, yet it didn't make a dent in their computer sales and the Playstation sold better than ever.

Re: Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish

#86

Post by tokenizerrr » Mon, May 11, 2015, 4:55 PM UTC

rip747 wrote: post #62

lessthunk wrote: post #24

.. reinstall any computer you get from scratch; Firmware Bios spying is of course much harder to get rid from.

as much as this is a good idea, remember that most people who buy a laptop just want to take it home and have it work. Add to that point that reinstalling from scratch typically involves finding all the drivers all over again and spending hours running through all the windows updates. This is something that most people DO NOT want to go through or have the knowledge to do so.

Are drivers really such a problem still with windows? The past few laptops I've reinstalled worked out of the box with a fresh install. If not, it automatically got the drivers from windows update.

Re: Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish

#87

Post by rhino369 » Mon, May 11, 2015, 4:55 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #75

rayiner wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably, although I'll note that cy pres awards are under intense scrutiny these days in the various Courts of Appeal. Besides that, is the result unfair here? Did the average claimant even suffer $5 in economic losses?

Shouldn't the potential risk be taken into account as well? They basically disabled HTTPS for a large number of people for a significant amount of time, leaving them open to great financial risk due to compromised bank accounts and such. That roughly nobody took advantage doesn't change the fact that the risk was there. I mean, if I fired a gun at your house but was lucky enough not to injure anybody, shouldn't my pu…

That is essentially the difference between Criminal law and civil law. Civil suits are typically designed to make you whole. You get what you actually lost.

Sometimes putative damages can be awarded, which can look at the egregiousness of the actions of the plaintiff. I don't know if those are available here.

Re: Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish

#88

Post by mikeash » Mon, May 11, 2015, 4:59 PM UTC

rhino369 wrote: post #87

mikeash wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shouldn't the potential risk be taken into account as well? They basically disabled HTTPS for a large number of people for a significant amount of time, leaving them open to great financial risk due to compromised bank accounts and such. That roughly nobody took advantage doesn't change the fact that the risk was there. I mean, if I fired a gun at your house but was lucky enough not to injure anybody, shouldn't my pu…

That is essentially the difference between Criminal law and civil law. Civil suits are typically designed to make you whole. You get what you actually lost. Sometimes putative damages can be awarded, which can look at the egregiousness of the actions of the plaintiff. I don't know if those are available here.

Then I guess the followup questions are: why aren't criminal charges being brought, and (if they're actually not) why aren't punitive damages being awarded?

Re: Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish

#89

Post by diyorgasms » Mon, May 11, 2015, 5:06 PM UTC

tokenizerrr wrote: post #86

rip747 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as much as this is a good idea, remember that most people who buy a laptop just want to take it home and have it work. Add to that point that reinstalling from scratch typically involves finding all the drivers all over again and spending hours running through all the windows updates. This is something that most people DO NOT want to go through or have the knowledge to do so.

Are drivers really such a problem still with windows? The past few laptops I've reinstalled worked out of the box with a fresh install. If not, it automatically got the drivers from windows update.

You can only get windows updates if your network drivers work. With the Lenovos, Dells, and HPs I've been coming across early, Windows 7 and 8 are broken out of the box, usually with no network drivers.

Strangely enough, Linux often works flawlessly with these same computers.

Re: Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish

#90

Post by rhino369 » Mon, May 11, 2015, 5:07 PM UTC

mfisher87 wrote: post #15

michaelhoffman wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the U.S., private prosecutions are not usually allowed. Additionally, government officials with prosecutorial authority have some amount of discretion in choosing which cases to prosecute and limited resources that prevent them from prosecuting every possible case. A private citizen cannot force prosecution, no matter how meritorious the case.

This is true, but one still wonders why government officials haven't pursued a criminal case.

One strategy the DOJ uses is to let a civil case go forward and then piggy back off it. Let the private attorneys do the heavy lifting and then swoop in for an easy victory.

Also, the way the law is structured, it's typically easier to get information in a civil suit since defendants have fewer rights.