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Workers Seeking Productivity in a Pill Are Abusing A.D.H.D. Drugs

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61–70 of 84 posts

Re: Workers Seeking Productivity in a Pill Are Abusing A.D.H.D. Drugs

#61
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are three areas I am aware of where labor can absolutely compound (in terms of output): business, software, and learning. > Perhaps, but what is the delta increase in zeal for their project. From my personal experience, it can increase dramatically. This is across the board. Whether it is something I am actually interested in doing or just drudgery. > But let's not suppose that a bad project or feckless employe…

>There are three areas I am aware of where labor can absolutely compound (in terms of output): business, software, and learning. Well this would mean that every 10 times engineer ends up 10^20 richer than average at the end of his career. Since that far exceeds the planet's wealth, I am somewhat skeptical. And if there are no 10 times engineer, even a five times engineer would end up roughly a hundred trillion times…

If you want to be (unnecessarily) pedantic, I never said what the frequency of the compounding was.

I didn't realize we were trying to come up with a realistic model of expected utility in these three fields.

If you don't want to believe that work put into these can compound over a person's life, thats fine. You're wrong, but that's ok. -- just don't pretend to pick it apart by applying math to an informal discussion.

Re: Workers Seeking Productivity in a Pill Are Abusing A.D.H.D. Drugs

#62
post #57
post #7

Off topic, but I was diagnosed with ADHD about 10 years ago, been taking methylphenidate ER ever since. Throughout the years I have had over ten different doctors at the same location and I informed each doctor that I was a marijuana user. Recently my latest doctor decided to drug test me, before asking any questions about my usage or even looking at my file he stated he would no longer prescribe me my medicine becau…

After quick search [1][2][3] I'm not surprised your doctor was hesitant, if something would happen to you he would be the first to be sued and possibly lose his license. You still have option to go to a different doctor who is willing to take that risk. If taking the drug is important to you, what about not taking the drug with marihuana? [1] http://ritalinaddictioninfo.com/addiction-information/danger... [2] https:/…

[1] >A person who abuses Ritalin and combines the drug with marijuana is likely to make very poor choices, such as increasing the dose of Ritalin or combining it with other, more dangerous drugs.

This is pretty much the only risk they state. That I might get so out of it I start mixing more drugs with it.

There are no sources on the site either. The name of the site is also "ritalin addiction". Ritalin is not even known to be highly addictive, but if it is, isn't it more dangerous to abruptly cut off my (high) dose of the extended releases form of Ritalin (concerta) that I've been taking continuously for nearly ten years?

[2] the user snorted the methylphenidate. I don't snort pills or anything else.

[3] anecdotal. If you read the thread the user was inexperienced with marijuana and it sounds to me like they may have had a panic-attack.

If my doctor tried to use any of this as "evidence" to support his claim, he would not have had to ask me to leave.

I totally agree that there could be some danger, but what I'm really upset about was the fact that he wouldn't allow a discussion about my condition at all or explain the dangers.

I would argue the risks of abruptly quitting concerta out weigh the risk of lowering my dose and having a discussion about the risks and giving me the chance to choose to quit smoking marijuana over the next month.

since we're linking to unscientific studies, here is one that supports my claim that quitting a high dosage of methylphenidate abruptly is a bad strategy:

>3. Cold Turkey vs. Tapering

>How did you quit Ritalin? Did you abruptly stop and quit cold turkey or did you conduct a gradual taper? Many people can quit “cold turkey” without noticing much of anything. Others who quit cold turkey have a very difficult time coping with the severity of withdrawal. It is usually best to conduct a gradual taper by slowly reducing your dose over a period of weeks (or months in more long term users).

>The more gradually you taper, the easier it will be for your brain and body to readapt to functioning without the drug. By tapering you are giving your body and brain increments of time to adjust to functioning with reductions of your Ritalin dose. If at any time during tapering you notice severe symptoms that are difficult to cope with, you may want to taper at an even more gradual rate.

http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2014/06/25/ritalin-methylphenid...

Re: Workers Seeking Productivity in a Pill Are Abusing A.D.H.D. Drugs

#63
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully it's a health startup promoting the legalization of stimulants and enhancers :-)

Legalize all you like: amphetamines are still bad for your heart and can engender quite the headache when they wear off.

That quote from Blade Runner: "The candle that burns twice as bright only lasts half as long..."

Sparingly, it seems like an important drug as a last resort for ADDHD but for "enhancement purposes?"

Summary: A new study conducted in rats [rats are not people] by the National Institutes of Health (NIH) and McLean Hospital/Harvard Medical School suggests that the misdiagnosis of attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) combined with prescription drug use in children may [emphasis on the word may] lead to a higher risk of developing depressive symptoms in adulthood.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/12/041220013546.ht...

Re: Workers Seeking Productivity in a Pill Are Abusing A.D.H.D. Drugs

#64

Not just in the workplace NFL players are using ADHD drugs to mask concussions too so as to keep their jobs and be "more productive." http://www.beyondchron.org/will-ritalin-become-the-human-gro...

How is that not "in the workplace"?

Re: Workers Seeking Productivity in a Pill Are Abusing A.D.H.D. Drugs

#65
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tolerance/withdrawal drawbacks for adderall are nearly non existent if you don't abuse it and take weekends off. Sure, after the well known honeymoon phase of a few weeks it's not the superman pill you might have expected would last forever, but otherwise responsible use will keep you more productive. People with little will power or addictive personalities (which a third party can't possibly always know) aren't…

Unfortunately, most casual and first-time users associate Adderall with the honeymoon phase you spoke of, not the actual long-term therapeutic effects that come from proper therapeutic use and dosing schedules. Generally speaking, conversations around using Adderall for productivity center more around the hyperactivity and unnatural engagement brought on by too-high dosing or acute use. Adderall is meant for long-ter…

> sporadic, acute dosing ... tolerance inevitably catches up to this manner of usage

Out of curiosity, does a sporadic use still lead to tolerance?

Re: Workers Seeking Productivity in a Pill Are Abusing A.D.H.D. Drugs

#66
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair is hard to tease out in situations like this, but not everyone is able to use Adderall and get the same effects; those with ADHD just come up to normal, and there are some folks who will have very negative reactions. What method would you propose to ensure those who did not get the net positive effects of a wonder drug were not negatively affected in the work force?

You make some good points. Re: your question, Realistically: People with severe handicaps can't compete in major league sports, and society makes no serious effort to "fix" this. If someone's brain chemistry makes them unable to compete in a field for whatever reason, they shouldn't make that field their dayjob. Pipe dream: See eli_gottlieb's insightful comment. Basic income maybe?

> People with severe handicaps can't compete in major league sports, and society makes no serious effort to "fix" this.

Given that 99%+ of the population can not participate in major league sports, it's harder to see this as an imbalance.

A better example would be the physically handicapped. Is it OK to exclude someone in a wheelchair from a software development job when they are equal to other applicants in every other way? How about someone who is blind?

Re: Workers Seeking Productivity in a Pill Are Abusing A.D.H.D. Drugs

#67
post #60
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope you're not referring to the 46 person study that states: *Our participants were not representative of the general population

There are other studies that show the same thing. One of the most recent is the one done at University of Pennsylvania

This was actually the study I was thinking of. I don't believe I've read any from the military now that I've checked, but I wouldn't be surprised if their conclusion was based on lack of sleep due to the military giving Dexedrine to pilots for alertness on long missions (which is to be expected; lack of sleep and not eating is not a safe way to use stimulants)

Re: Workers Seeking Productivity in a Pill Are Abusing A.D.H.D. Drugs

#68

How does somebody tell if they actually have ADHD or they are just easily distracted? Isn't "Do they respond to ADHD medication?" our only test?

> Isn't "Do they respond to ADHD medication?" our only test? No, absolutely not. It's a common internet myth that response to ADHD medication is indicative of ADHD. In reality, nearly anyone who takes ADHD medication acutely will experience increased focus and productivity (again, acutely) due to the acute (pre-tolerance build-up) effects of the drugs. Additionally, new users experience a short-lived euphoria that co…

[deleted]

Re: Workers Seeking Productivity in a Pill Are Abusing A.D.H.D. Drugs

#69

How does somebody tell if they actually have ADHD or they are just easily distracted? Isn't "Do they respond to ADHD medication?" our only test?

> Isn't "Do they respond to ADHD medication?" our only test? No, absolutely not. It's a common internet myth that response to ADHD medication is indicative of ADHD. In reality, nearly anyone who takes ADHD medication acutely will experience increased focus and productivity (again, acutely) due to the acute (pre-tolerance build-up) effects of the drugs. Additionally, new users experience a short-lived euphoria that co…

To be clear: I'm getting that from a psychiatrist and a psychologist that I've seen. Of course they would have an economic incentive to over-diagnose.

Do you happen to know what one actually does in order to "pursue constant discipline and self-monitoring"? Mindfulness meditation is not really that effective, but I might have been doing it wrong. Running in the morning seems to have had some effect but I can't yet tell. The only things that have been effective have been applying external constraints by:

- Getting married to someone willing to yell at me for getting distracted.

- Installing http://selfcontrolapp.com/ and putting it on before I go to bed.

- Putting my smartphone near a co-worker's desk when I get in in the morning.

- Making sure my monitor faces out towards the common area so someone could look over my shoulder.

- Keeping a lab notebook so that I can remember the state in my head if I do get distracted.

- During meetings, pushing people to be very clear on what problem we are trying to solve.

It works okay. I am a fairly productive engineer as long as I am on a team where I can succeed at that last bit. But I've never been able to get rid of the internal urge to check my email or HN or Twitter. Or worse, to look things up about, for example, the role that the Harlem Hellfighters and other WWI vets played in the Civil Rights movement of the 1920's and 30's. So whenever I have a weekend to myself to work on projects in my spare time, I don't get anything done and I haven't known how to even make progress toward fixing that.

Re: Workers Seeking Productivity in a Pill Are Abusing A.D.H.D. Drugs

#70
post #22

Interesting that there was no mention of Modafinil. I believe that one of the most "abused" drugs for "productivity" is currently Modafinil, far more powerful than Adderall and without all those side effects. Of course, long term side effects are unknown.

I'd disagree with it being far more "powerful" than Adderall, having been prescribed both at one time or another. They're effects on me are quite different: Adderall - I seem to focus on anything I needed to without resistance, similar to how I would focus on something I enjoy. The side effects on me were (to me) extreme emotional instability, which was too off putting to use regularly - could not play well with othe…

> I'd like to see how I react to both together, but hesitant given my poor reaction to Adderall. When I was younger I remember preferring Ritalin over Adderall.

I always advise against poly-pharmacy if possible. Particularly when dealing with powerful stimulants for which the mechanism of action isn't fully understood (Modafinil).

Interestingly, Modafinil might somewhat antagonize the Adderall due to an interaction between their mechanisms of action. Modafinil's MOA is partially due to dopamine reuptake inhibition (similar to Ritalin), but Adderall relies largely on being taken in to the presynaptic terminals and forcing dopamine out. By inhibiting dopamine uptake, Modafinil can (theoretically) decrease the amount of Adderall taken in to the terminal as well as the amount of dopamine available in the terminal for release. We've seen this in a few studies where Modafinil can actually reduce the neurotoxic effects of Adderall, likely due to this antagonizing of Adderall's core MOA.

The magnitude of this effect at therapeutic dosages is unknown, but it's possible and even likely that the combination would be distinctly different than what you might expect a combination of the two drugs to feel like.

> EDIT: Adding to the throwaway comment below, the long halflife of Modafinil is true, especially when trying to sleep. For me, after months of 3-4 days on a week, there seemed to be no long term issues with this, where days I had taken Modafinil I only slept 3-4 hours.

It's expected that your body would adapt somewhat to sleeping on the medication, but that doesn't mean that you were getting quality sleep. Humans are notoriously bad at judging sleep quality, for one, but more importantly here: You were taking a wakefulness-promoting agent, which would have covered any subjective feelings of poor sleep. My concerns with Modafinil stem more from potential long-term implications of interrupting sleep, particularly when the traditional signs of poor sleep (daily fatigue and sleepiness) are then obscured by the drug itself, leading to a false sense of restedness.

However, we can begin to infer poor sleep quality by other, indirect markets, such as:

> I definitely had issues with alcohol and Modafinil, where at my weight (220lbs) I could normally drink 3-4 pints to reach 'buzzed' status, this seemed to happen at 1-2 pints. This trend stayed consistent - and proper 'drunk' came much quicker. This had the effect of limiting my drinking, to the point where I would switch to light beers and stop drinking after 1-2.

Getting subjectively incapacitated from a lower number of beers could, theoretically, be indicative of a subtle sleep-deprived state, for example.

Again, much of this is just semi-educated conjecture, but given the importance of sleep to long-term health I'm wary of these stimulants with long half-lives.

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