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Travel in the USA Requires ID

neil.fraser.name

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Re: Travel in the USA Requires ID

#101

Post by ahomescu1 »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #93
eli wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the blog states, you actually don't need an ID to fly, you just need to prove your identity (and be ready for a huge hassle).

Is "proving your identity" different in any meaningful way from "having an ID"?

I imagine if you were ever on TV or in the newspaper/a magazine with your picture in it, you can just carry the newspaper around with you everywhere and show them that picture.

I think someone like Barack Obama or Al Pacino can easily "prove their identity".

Re: Travel in the USA Requires ID

#102

Post by adventured »

thecopy wrote: post #65
smackfu wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the US is actually pretty good about not requiring you to always have Federal ID on you, compared to European countries.

I cannot remember the last time i showed my ID to anyone when traveling/flying in Europe.

I had to show ID (Passport) to both take a train from Germany to Paris, and to fly from Germany to Rome. And again while on the train each direction. I also had to show my passport / ID at each hotel I stayed at in Paris and Rome.

Re: Travel in the USA Requires ID

#103

Post by eli »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #93
eli wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the blog states, you actually don't need an ID to fly, you just need to prove your identity (and be ready for a huge hassle).

Is "proving your identity" different in any meaningful way from "having an ID"?

I guess it depends what point you're trying to make. There's a big debate in several states around voting and whether it should require proof of identity and whether that's specifically an ID or something else.

I personally think there's a difference between "you must have one of these specific documents to travel" vs "you must be an identifiable person to travel"

Re: Travel in the USA Requires ID

#104

Post by CWuestefeld »

saint_fiasco wrote: post #46

The author of the article implies that he used to be proud of not having to do so because it differentiates his country from the Soviet Union. How will having to carry ID turn a country into an authoritarian dystopia? Is it just an American thing? I ask because I live in a country with an authoritarian past and we still have to carry ID everywhere and people just don't see anything wrong with that. Should I try to pe…

Perhaps it's a small thing, but I remember as a young boy, probably in the early 70s and the Cold War, my mother telling me about the USSR. I specifically recall her saying "over there you need to have papers to travel, so we couldn't just go visit your grandparents like we're doing today".

For whatever reason, that stuck with me for 40-odd years, so the differences today really do resonate with me.

Re: Travel in the USA Requires ID

#105

Post by thesimon »

ubernostrum wrote: post #76
thecopy wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot remember the last time i showed my ID to anyone when traveling/flying in Europe.

I was advised, by Germans, to always have my passport on my person when in Germany, as police are empowered to and will randomly stop people and demand identification. One German friend told me that once he was caught out without his ID, and police literally escorted him home to retrieve and show it. Also had to show ID (passport, in my case, as a visitor from the US) to board planes in Europe. While traveling on tra…

>Also had to show ID (passport, in my case, as a visitor from the US) to board planes in Europe.

If this was a Schengen (inter-europe flight), the only reason you would need it would be on checkin if your airline checks this for revenue protection. By law there shouldn't be any passport checks (at least only randomly).

Anecdote: Travelled by airplane within Europe multiple times, never had to show my passport

>While traveling on trains in Germany, I was also required to show ID.

Which is only required if you get a non-transferrable online ticket. If you buy your ticket at the station, there is no need to show an ID on the train (in contrast to Amtrak)

Re: Travel in the USA Requires ID

#106

Post by saint_fiasco »

nine_k wrote: post #68
saint_fiasco wrote: post #46

The author of the article implies that he used to be proud of not having to do so because it differentiates his country from the Soviet Union. How will having to carry ID turn a country into an authoritarian dystopia? Is it just an American thing? I ask because I live in a country with an authoritarian past and we still have to carry ID everywhere and people just don't see anything wrong with that. Should I try to pe…

There's a difference between requiring to identify oneself and requiring to get an explicit clearance to travel. Last time I checked, air travel in the US requires a valid ID, but you're automatically allowed to travel, unless you're on some no-fly list or are a wanted criminal. (Last time I took Amtrak it did not require any authentication; I bought a ticket from a vending machine.) The US system is built with certa…

In my country it's exactly the same way. You need an ID, but not an authorization. The location data is also treated the same way, for the second reason you stated.

The way people feel about needing valid ID is very different, though.

Re: Travel in the USA Requires ID

#107

Post by smackfu »

lettergram wrote: post #40
smackfu wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the US is actually pretty good about not requiring you to always have Federal ID on you, compared to European countries.

I find it strange compare the laws of a state to others and say things like, "It's pretty good compared to..." They are different government types, founded on different laws, containing different people, and so on. The United States was founded on the idea of "freedom" so, it seems strange to require anything on you, unless it impedes others freedoms.

>The United States was founded on the idea of "freedom"

I'd argue that the United States was founded on particular freedoms, not the general idea of it. Like the original settlers just wanted the freedom to practice their religion in peace. They certainly didn't believe in any freedoms beyond their own interests.

Re: Travel in the USA Requires ID

#108

Post by shiro »

ubernostrum wrote: post #76
thecopy wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot remember the last time i showed my ID to anyone when traveling/flying in Europe.

I was advised, by Germans, to always have my passport on my person when in Germany, as police are empowered to and will randomly stop people and demand identification. One German friend told me that once he was caught out without his ID, and police literally escorted him home to retrieve and show it. Also had to show ID (passport, in my case, as a visitor from the US) to board planes in Europe. While traveling on tra…

Being non-citizen is a different story. I think both US and Japan require non-citizens to carry their registration document (green card, visa, etc.) all the time, although it is rare that you actually asked to present it. Demanding ID for its own citizens sounds a lot worse.

Re: Travel in the USA Requires ID

#109

Post by CWuestefeld »

rhino369 wrote: post #47
imglorp wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Three words: No Fly List. There is no transparency to that process, no way to find out if you're on it, no appeal, no recourse. That's tantamount to license to travel if not worse.

I don't really want to argue in support of the no-fly list because I think it is definitely unconstitutional (in current form), but it is still not a license to travel. It's a black list compared to a white list (travel papers). This makes a huge difference as the default is that you are allowed to travel. Instead of having to convince some bureaucrat that you should be allowed to travel, the government just blocks a…

the default is that you are allowed to travel

I disagree with that interpretation. In fact, there is no default as such. You are required to demonstrate your identity in order to show that you're not one of those people. So you can't just fall into the default condition.

So 1.5 x10^-4 percent of Americans are limited by it.

Abridging the rights of a small number is still abridging rights. The philosophy of the USA, as demonstrated in the Bill of Rights, is supposed to be that minorities, even individuals, have their rights protected from the tyranny of the majority.

Re: Travel in the USA Requires ID

#110

Post by adventured »

Frondo wrote: post #91
lettergram wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it strange compare the laws of a state to others and say things like, "It's pretty good compared to..." They are different government types, founded on different laws, containing different people, and so on. The United States was founded on the idea of "freedom" so, it seems strange to require anything on you, unless it impedes others freedoms.

I can't see how the US was founded on that idea of "freedom unless it impedes others freedoms," since, at its most basic level, the US government has always restricted people's movements. If you "own" property, I can't freely walk onto that property. Your "ownership" places a severe limitation on my ability to exercise the freedom to move about freely. It seems specious to claim retroactively that the US somehow care…

Your premise is invalid. It'd be the same as claiming that by existing and occupying physical space, combined with my not having a right to murder you, you're preventing me from accessing the physical space you're occupying and therefore denying me freedom.

The hole in your logic is the notion that your freedom is impeded, when in fact it is not: that freedom properly does not exist where you're claiming it should. The same logic hole is commonly seen when people claim censorship on private forums: freedom of speech does not apply there, just as physical right to pass/movement does not apply to private physical space.

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