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Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

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Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#281

Post by Macha »

crdoconnor wrote: post #65
tptacek wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a C programmer. C is my first language. I have shipped C code. I'm pretty sure I've literally shipped C code, in shrink-wrapped boxes. I took my kids to the museum today and hung out in the cafe pushing commits while they wandered around. What was I hacking on? A C compiler . C is less relevant now than it was in 1996. A lot less relevant . Way, way, way less relevant. In 1996, most serious software was written…

I don't really see anything else that has taken its crown for systems programming.

Nothing has taken its place for is a long way down from being one of the most popular languages for anything, like it was in the 90s

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#282

Post by rndrnd »

overgard wrote: post #280
rndrnd wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like the parent tried to explain, different fields (programming, law, medicine, etc) have different experience curves. There is definitely enough in programming to learn for 200 years, if we lived that long. It's just that when programming in area E, a 47 yo who learned A, B, C, D, and E does not have an advantage over a 32 yo who learned B, D, and E. But the 32 yo has the advantage of his youth. I also don't get all…

> Like the parent tried to explain I understood his argument, despite what your condescending comment suggests, I just reject the premise it's built on. His premise is that in 8-10 years of experience you will be "max-level-programmer" and after that point there's not much worth learning, and you're a depreciating asset and you should parlay your experience into something else. The ageism in the tech field should bot…

I didn't mean for my comment to be condescending - sorry about that.

I was a computer programmer from 20 to 21 (I worked full time in college), and I changed fields at 21. I am in my 30s now. I didn't figure out these dynamics by myself - I was fortunate that my manager at the time was also changing fields, and he explained these things to me. He was in his early 30s and he became a doctor.

Now I am just trying to return the favor by describing these things to younger people on HN. And I read HN for kicks. :)

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#283

Post by Silhouette »

mahyarm wrote: post #267
Silhouette wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other 'sticks with what they know to a detriment' are devs that stick with SCMs such as svn or cvs or even rcs when things like git or mercurial are out there. Don't mistake not buying the hype for sticking with something just because you know it. While there aren't a lot of reasons to favour RCS or CVS when Subversion exists, there are sensible reasons you might favour SVN over a DVCS for some projects.

It's been 10 years since git has been released, and in my personal case when this happened, there wasn't any good reason other than 'it's what I know'. The company started with SVN when git had been around for a while. It's slowed down the company globally, prevents us from using various tools that don't have svn compatibility (like android's repo, gerrit or git's client side pre-commit hooks) and overall just been a…

There are certainly good things about DVCSes like Git or Mercurial that you miss when using SVN.

On the other hand, every project I've ever worked on that has used Git still had some sort of centralised repository that was considered authoritative for controlled release purposes. The smart projects had a local server for this that everyone pushed to. The over-enthusiastic used GitHub, and in at least one case then found themselves unable to deploy when their systems were all up but GitHub was down.

Within that master repository, having a single linear history so you can identify exactly which code you've got in any given release with just a revision number is often helpful. In Git you simply don't have this, so you have to manually tag everything you might ever want to reproduce, which is basically everything on your master server, which requires extra hassle and clutters your log.

A separate but very practical issue is that SVN has worked fine on Windows for years. Git's support for Windows is getting better, but still far from ideal even today.

The sheer complexity of Git, up to and including data loss bugs because even Git's own scripts didn't track everything properly, is another recurring concern.

I've seen more than one very experienced developer, well aware of the pros and cons of different tools, argue for using SVN on a new project for these reasons alone.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#284

Post by noarchy »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #158
Cupof37 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not confuse engineering with programming. Most programmers aren't engineers (don't have engineering degrees, aren't comfortable with physics / calculus, etc.) Real engineers generally don't have these employment issues as they age. Programmers are 'engineers' in the same way that those with an MCSE are 'engineers' -- they operate a computer and employ a unique and useful skill-set.

No true Scotsman. What's an engineer? I'd argue that people who studied software engineering for four or five years, then became software engineers, count as engineers. The fact that they don't have much insight into physics is wildly irrelevant.

Here in Canada, I cannot advertise myself as a professional engineer without an engineering license. I'm not saying that this is the way things should be done, mind you, but being an engineer is a legal distinction in some places.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#285

Post by sukilot »

crististm wrote: post #233
cookiecaper wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The interesting thing about engineers is that they have very little tolerance for these destructive social shenanigans. Courtesy and politeness are one thing, but ignoring such a flagrantly flawed plan goes beyond courtesy and into professional negligence. When empirical thought is your bread and butter, as it is in the case of software developers, it's hard to see why you should have to acquiesce to the VP's ego. If…

I am now convinced that an idiot in a management position is unable to raise himself above the level of idiocy he is in - by any means. By definition, he should have to _listen_ and _weigh_ the facts being reported to him, not only to filter out the hidden agendas, but to also see all the facets of reality. Doing this would automatically exclude him from the idiots group. Unfortunately most of management ones will no…

Did you mean "or" not "for", or are you an old fogey who forgot that most of HN wasn't yet born when Challenger exploded?

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#286

Post by sukilot »

beachstartup wrote: post #219
SiVal wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny you should say that. A few years ago, at a company whose name everyone here knows I, an old gray-hair, almost lost my full-time job for warning a VP that she was about to make a mistake I'd seen before. I honestly thought she was joking when she told me about the approach she was going to use to deal with a "hard deadline" of four months. I laughed along with her joke until, with a shock, we both realized…

as you allude to in your final paragraph, the unfortunate reality is that unless you're specifically assigned the task (in this case, the VP was), it's not your role to dictate the plan or criticize it to the level you did. at most, you can make your observations known once. this sort of thing very rarely ends in termination or quitting, but usually a sort of political/social alienation which you describe. in reality…

Successful technology firms are not run the way you describe.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#287

Post by jmspring »

phamilton wrote: post #252
jmspring wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bay Area real estate has picked up, but timing 15 years to sell? Doesn't always work out as well as it could if things have cratered. There have been about three significant real estate collapses in the Bay Area in the last 20-30 years. Some areas hold up better than others, but, say mountain view, a 20-something at his/her first/second job, unless has other means, isn't going to pick up property easily to hold for 1…

15 years isn't exact. Boom bust cycle is 5 years or so. If the market is down in 15 years, then just wait it out. I'm not even including appreciation in the calculations.

True, and not everyone will want to dig up and move to Idaho. Established roots, friends, etc. There is more to "home" than just the walls in which you sleep.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#288

Post by sukilot »

greenyoda wrote: post #102
eranation wrote: post #10

I think it depends a lot on the industry, a young SF based Rails / Django / based startup? I hardly see them hiring a 40 years old with kids that will ask for a salary higher than the CEO. A front end UI developer with knowledge of the latest Ember / Anguler / React / whatever they come up with next front-end tech? Perhaps they are more likely to find a fresh graduate (or just a self taught hacker who just rocks at H…

"I hardly see them hiring a 40 years old with kids that will ask for a salary higher than the CEO." This preconceived notion that a manager or CEO must earn more than their employees doesn't make much sense. It's just a status game. If that developer (regardless of their age) has skills and experience that the company needs, and those skills are harder to find in the job market than management skills, it makes sense…

The president is the highest paid person in government, though.

But baseball players are paid more than managers.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#289

Post by isomorphic »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #107
isomorphic wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm over 40 and I've always worked as a consultant. Until recently I was the sole developer on a site doing eight figures in revenue (now I'm team lead). Without being arrogant here, if my skills match but someone doesn't want my level of experience, it's not a good sign for the someone. On the flip side, I would love to throw out all of the languages and frameworks I've been using for the past few years and learn en…

Did you grow the site into 8 figures or brought on board? What was the site doing? I would imagine management would be terrified of reliance on one, bus-getting-hit-by developer.

I developed the site entirely. To be clear: The site is essentially the interface to the business. I won't say I developed it "myself," since I was in a team with non-technical people who knew what functions they wanted from the site. However I was the only technical person involved.

Now we have more developers, for which I am very thankful. Unfortunately, way too much knowledge is locked up in me, and I never have time to commit that knowledge to bits, paper, or oral history.

Believe me, buses and beer trucks have been discussed as possible ends to my consulting gig. It is my fondest hope that this business has key-man insurance on me. I'd be pleased to know that they have such insurance, but less interested in knowing how much the policy is for!

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#290

Post by fieryeagle »

ktran03 wrote: post #235
matthewmacleod wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No true Scotsman. What's an engineer? I'd argue that people who studied software engineering for four or five years, then became software engineers, count as engineers. The fact that they don't have much insight into physics is wildly irrelevant.

This varies with where you live. In Canada, a programmer is certainly not an engineer. And for Canadians going for a TN visa to work in the US, programmers are not allowed. Usually they try to slip in as 'Systems analysts' or craft the job/acceptance letter to fit under an engineering discipline. Software Engineers are engineers in Canada. A self taught programmer doing css/html is not an engineer. I'd simply qualify…

Not sure if one should favour 4 years in theory or 4 years in relevant work, for a programming position. For research, yes absolutely as it is straight carryover.
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