Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 6:17 PM UTC

Post by jv22222 » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 6:17 PM UTC

switch_bro wrote: post #204

archgrove wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm quite sure there's more to software engineering than can be learned in 8-10 years. I spent 7 years working with one tiny part of formal software verification, and still didn't get to the bottom of it. Perhaps it's true in web development, where it does really seem like the industry is recycling ideas every 18 months. But there's far more depth to the field than just "JavaScript framework n+1" and "Yet another tas…

The point is not that there is nothing to learn after 8-10 years. There is enough to learn for multiple lifetimes. The point is that after 8-10 years additional learning/experience will not give you a competitive advantage compared to younger programmers. Also, I can see why someone would downvote my post above, since it describes an unpleasant reality. But I think it is crucial for young programmers to be aware of t…

You're getting down votes because it's simply not true. It's not about age it's about the person. And it couldn't be more wrong to say that there's nothing to learn after 8-10 years, even in web.

But let's talk about the competitive advantage part of your argument.

Personally, I have spent 20 years collapsing and simplifying "everything" in my work product. IE ui design, coding patterns, and all other aspects of my tech related work product.

Whenever I show my code to new devs they usually say "yup I get it, it's easy". But it's not easy, I just spent a crap load of time thinking about those patterns over the years making them easier and easier over every iteration.

So, that's one competitive advantage right there.

But another competitive advantage polyglot old guys have. They can truly be a full stack developers taking an idea from mockup to web and mobile and completely scaled distributed systems.

It's VERY hard for anyone to do that without putting in 10-15 years because each discipline (design, mockup, mobile, architecture, scaling, etc.) takes a lot of time and effort to master. That said I have met 30 year olds who started at 15 who could do that too.

I think of it like the CEO who worked his way up from the mail room, he's seen every part of the company inside and out and that's why he's so good at building companies now.

Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 6:22 PM UTC

Post by rndrnd » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 6:22 PM UTC

aswanson wrote: post #255

switch_bro wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article focuses on the fact that as programmers age past 30 their salaries grow but they have roughly the same skills. But that is not the main dynamic here. The main dynamic is that as a person's brain ages, it improves in some ways and gets worse in others. The improvement is that you have more depth and experience. The loss is that your brain gets slower and less flexible. Unfortunately, in computer programmin…

What advice would you give to old forty year olds like myself that waited too long to read the tea leaves?

I don't really have advice, but I know there is a very large number of people in their 40s looking to change careers so probably there are many common pathways, internet discussion forums about different professions, etc.

Same for people in the 30s. For example, in the lower ranked medical schools in this country (US), there are many former programmers in their 30s, and they discuss things on boards like http://www.oldpremeds.org/phpBB3/

Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 6:26 PM UTC

Post by czep » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 6:26 PM UTC

_pmf_ wrote: post #206

Here's a plan: move outside the Silicon Valley circle jerk. You won't get a ridiculous superstar salary, but you get the chance of working on actual products instead of throwaway MVPs.

This is a worthwhile consideration for all of us. I do think it's helpful for your career development, socialization, skill and salary advancement, to spend some time in the "Capitol" of SV. But leaving before it burns you out is also something to keep in mind.

I actually moved here not if my own accord, but following my spouse (who isn't in a tech field). Luckily her career is very stable, but even with 2 fat incomes, the cost-benefit ratio of SV life is a difficult proposition.

There are lots of good jobs to be had in smaller markets, and with less douchery comes a bit more humanity and respect for people and their skills.

Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 6:27 PM UTC

Post by jv22222 » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 6:27 PM UTC

aswanson wrote: post #255

switch_bro wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article focuses on the fact that as programmers age past 30 their salaries grow but they have roughly the same skills. But that is not the main dynamic here. The main dynamic is that as a person's brain ages, it improves in some ways and gets worse in others. The improvement is that you have more depth and experience. The loss is that your brain gets slower and less flexible. Unfortunately, in computer programmin…

What advice would you give to old forty year olds like myself that waited too long to read the tea leaves?

I think the main building block is to have mental elasticity and willingness to try new ideas and technology.

Also, you need to be willing to get over the hump. That part when you are looking at something like node or rabbitmq. You've read the intros 2-3 times and it still seems like crazy incomprehensible gobbledygook.

When I get to that place, I stop working on it, go out for a walk and just let my brain work through it in the background.

30 mins later i sit down at the computer and it starts to make sense.

The other HUGE trick is to hire someone on Airpair to chat with you about the new tech for 30-60 mins. Actually I just gave you the best advice. Do the airpair thing for any new tech you want to get into.

Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 6:46 PM UTC

Post by wongarsu » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 6:46 PM UTC

rndrnd wrote: post #266

wongarsu wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's just that when programming in area E, a 47 yo who learned A, B, C, D, and E does not have an advantage over a 32 yo who learned B, D, and E. Then maybe task E is not the right task for the 47 year old? Maybe when building another accounting system it's enough to know all about accounting systems, but the closer you get to the cutting edge the more useful broad knowledge gets. For example there is just about nob…

Remember the comparison is not between 47 yo with experience vs 22 yo with no experience. It's 47 yo vs 32 yo - both have experience.

But one of them has 15 years more time to get experience in a number of fields (or in depth in one or two fields). I think 15 years is enough to still make a difference in this regard.

Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 6:50 PM UTC

Post by allendoerfer » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 6:50 PM UTC

mhomde wrote: post #169

isomorphic wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm over 40 and I've always worked as a consultant. Until recently I was the sole developer on a site doing eight figures in revenue (now I'm team lead). Without being arrogant here, if my skills match but someone doesn't want my level of experience, it's not a good sign for the someone. On the flip side, I would love to throw out all of the languages and frameworks I've been using for the past few years and learn en…

A novice doesn't know what tools he need. An expert has mastered the tools he has been given. A master starts thinking about the tools he COULD have :)

I will get downvoted for this, but have to do it anyway:

NPM either disproves your thesis or has an exceptionally high amount of masters in its community for a language at that level of abstraction.

Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 6:53 PM UTC

Post by SiVal » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 6:53 PM UTC

rapind wrote: post #178

icebraining wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can be frank without laughing at it.

For sure. Don't be a dick is a pretty good strategy. However, I didn't get the impression that was his intent though: "I laughed along with her joke until, with a shock, we both realized that I was actually laughing at her actual plan" .

Right. I was neither being "frank" nor intentionally laughing at her plan. She was smiling, and I thought she was kidding. I was smiling, and she apparently thought I was approving. Suddenly, we both realized we were wrong. Oops.

At that point, the damage was done. I tried to explain why her approach of changing N things simultaneously wasn't more efficient than changing N things sequentially because of the combinatorial explosion of interactions, but she wasn't technical enough to understand what I meant by that, which made her angrier, and when I suggested an approach that would give us a temporary "Plan B" just in case we "ended up a couple of weeks late", she declared me "unsupportive" and ended the meeting.

Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 6:57 PM UTC

Post by rndrnd » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 6:57 PM UTC

jv22222 wrote: post #271

switch_bro wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is not that there is nothing to learn after 8-10 years. There is enough to learn for multiple lifetimes. The point is that after 8-10 years additional learning/experience will not give you a competitive advantage compared to younger programmers. Also, I can see why someone would downvote my post above, since it describes an unpleasant reality. But I think it is crucial for young programmers to be aware of t…

You're getting down votes because it's simply not true. It's not about age it's about the person. And it couldn't be more wrong to say that there's nothing to learn after 8-10 years, even in web. But let's talk about the competitive advantage part of your argument. Personally, I have spent 20 years collapsing and simplifying "everything" in my work product. IE ui design, coding patterns, and all other aspects of my t…

Look, I agree with your suggestions. But each of the things you suggest (improve yourself, become full stack, maintain mental elasticity) falls in the category "try harder". That only works with things you can control.

There are also things you cannot control - changes to your brain as you get older, the kinds of jobs that are available, what other computer programmers specialize in. These are your odds.

Your success is a function of your efforts and your odds. Success = f(try harder, your odds). Since you are human, you can choose your path, and it doesn't make sense to choose a path where the odds decline so dramatically as you get to 46 ... 58 ... 63 ...

Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 7:55 PM UTC

Post by SiVal » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 7:55 PM UTC

dennisgorelik wrote: post #268

SiVal wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny you should say that. A few years ago, at a company whose name everyone here knows I, an old gray-hair, almost lost my full-time job for warning a VP that she was about to make a mistake I'd seen before. I honestly thought she was joking when she told me about the approach she was going to use to deal with a "hard deadline" of four months. I laughed along with her joke until, with a shock, we both realized…

You should quit working for her. Either transfer to another department or if it is not possible - transfer to another company. There is almost no upside working anywhere near her. She would screw up every meaningful project and attach failure to professional reputations of everyone involved. What was the approach she was trying to use to deal with a "hard deadline"?

I can't give away too much here, but we had bought some companies and had to change our Web stack to show that we ate our own newly acquired dog food. That part was unavoidable.

I just assumed we would make a gradual transition, replacing the two stack layers one at a time, and starting each of those replacements with new, non-strategic web apps (ex: a mailing list signup sheet for some small event), always getting things working before extending the rollout. We would get as many things working as possible by the "hard deadline", and our customers for these new products (who would be developers themselves and would know that these were new products for us) would understand that a gradual replacement of our old technologies was just good engineering, not a sign that our new products weren't good.

But she told me with a smile that we were going to replace all of our Web apps simultaneously with a matched set of replacements showcasing what could be done with our new products (one of which would require using a version so new it wasn't even feature frozen much less production-ready, to show off our coming features) and, as long as we were changing two critical layers of the stack simultaneously, we would change all the other layers, too, right down to the OS and hardware "and just do it right".

And I assumed I was just laughing with her--yeah, yeah, very funny--until we both suddenly realized what was actually happening.

(And, I don't work for her. I was transferred elsewhere, and she was eventually laid off.)

Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 9:41 PM UTC

Post by overgard » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 9:41 PM UTC

rndrnd wrote: post #251

overgard wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately, in computer programming you will run out of experience and depth that you can accumulate after about 8-10 years of work (say ages 22 - 32). Every new technology is just a variant of the previous 999 technologies. But you still keep getting older every year, and incurring the downsides of getting older! I'm going to call bullshit on that. There are a lot of recycled technologies (especially in web), b…

Like the parent tried to explain, different fields (programming, law, medicine, etc) have different experience curves. There is definitely enough in programming to learn for 200 years, if we lived that long. It's just that when programming in area E, a 47 yo who learned A, B, C, D, and E does not have an advantage over a 32 yo who learned B, D, and E. But the 32 yo has the advantage of his youth. I also don't get all…

> Like the parent tried to explain

I understood his argument, despite what your condescending comment suggests, I just reject the premise it's built on. His premise is that in 8-10 years of experience you will be "max-level-programmer" and after that point there's not much worth learning, and you're a depreciating asset and you should parlay your experience into something else.

The ageism in the tech field should bother everyone, because you too are one day going to be old.

Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

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Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)