Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009) • Hacker News Board

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#101

Post by aksx » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 6:43 AM UTC

JeremyMorgan wrote: post #33

jarsin wrote: post #25

Lets see every 20-30 year old we have brought in the past 3 years: A) Is so arrogant they think they know it all. Then when they turn in the code it's barely passable and it become clear they are going to be difficult to work with. B) Are overly emotional and they all take things way too seriously. Now every 35+ person we have brought in for a project is: A) Professional. Gets the job done and very well. B) Sees the…

When I was a programmer in my 20s, I saw the same among my peers and tried to emulate an engineer in my 30s. I stayed mature, tried to focus on the big picture and was always open to advice from elders because I didn't know squat yet and was aware of it. Just by doing that I excelled in many areas, and now as a n almost 40 year old developer I try to hire people who act like I did, and believe me they're out there.

This is exactly why I enjoy reading HN. As a 21 year old software developer, I do not understand how can someone be arrogant, just opening github makes me acknowledge what I still need to learn.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#102

Post by greenyoda » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 6:46 AM UTC

eranation wrote: post #10

I think it depends a lot on the industry, a young SF based Rails / Django / based startup? I hardly see them hiring a 40 years old with kids that will ask for a salary higher than the CEO. A front end UI developer with knowledge of the latest Ember / Anguler / React / whatever they come up with next front-end tech? Perhaps they are more likely to find a fresh graduate (or just a self taught hacker who just rocks at H…

"I hardly see them hiring a 40 years old with kids that will ask for a salary higher than the CEO."

This preconceived notion that a manager or CEO must earn more than their employees doesn't make much sense. It's just a status game. If that developer (regardless of their age) has skills and experience that the company needs, and those skills are harder to find in the job market than management skills, it makes sense to pay them a higher salary.

Nobody questions the fact that baseball players and movie stars and investment bankers are paid several times more than the president of the U.S., so why shouldn't developers who are in high demand be able to make more than a CEO?

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#103

Post by fsloth » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 7:01 AM UTC

elwell wrote: post #79

bikamonki wrote: post #2

More options: - Go solo. At 40 you should be experienced enough to handle up to mid-sized projects, alone and on a reasonable time-frame. Try to pick projects that your clients will actually use, with new features and support contracts you will have steady income for the long-term. - Go startup. Stop thinking you need to come up with the next über-for-x. There are plenty of opportunities for small sass shops that cat…

> At 40 you should be experienced enough to handle up to mid-sized projects, alone and on a reasonable time-frame At 25...

I presume a troll? At 25 I graduated as MSc (physics), had not worked a day in the industry, and began my PhD studies. At 26 I figured computer graphics where much more fun than running quantum physical simulations in a lonely cellar and began my software engineering career. At which point I was still pretty clueless of the complexities of software engineering in the industry.

The time limit is not age but how much experience one has doing software engineering projects. One needs several unders ones belt, preferably some that have actually shipped so that one sees what the end user implications of the said products are. How long this will take? A couple of years? Hard to say.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#104

Post by stinos » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 7:10 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #23

Don't specialize in things that depreciate as rapidly as programming languages! C++ experience is quickly getting less relevant over time, but stochastic calculus, digital signal processing, machine learning, and distributed systems aren't. Some of those specialties get more valuable; in fact, sometimes, the forces that make things like C++ less valuable actually clear the way for things like distributed systems to b…

C++ experience is quickly getting less relevant over time

I hear this often on HN and elsewhere, if I'd had to guess I'd also say it's true. But is there any proper evidence to support that? And in any case, it will probably still take decades before C++ will be gone. Maybe you could as well say: specialize in C++ now, in 20 years specialized companies will be begging on their knees for you to come work for them to keep their legacy C+++ stack working :]

don't specialize in programming languages.

Depending on the language you do need some level of specialization/mastering though else you might end up being writing very sub-optimal or even bad code in some languages. I'd say learning how to learn a programming language also pays off. Have you seen the amounts of SO questions for C from people who haven't reached a certain level yet? Their programs continuously crash or don't work as expected. Not necessarily because their intent is incorrect or they are bad programmers/engineers but more often because they lack proper understanding of C. Have you tried approaching Matlab the same way as any other language? Oops, there goes the performance. Working in Labview? It might look like it's easy (hey, all you gotta do is draw wires, right) but good luck building a medium sized application with it if you don't know at least some of the ins and outs. Now you might say 'if you encounter such problems you need to pick a better language' but that is just not how it works.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#105

Post by tajen » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 7:11 AM UTC

MCRed wrote: post #91

derrekl wrote: post #69

I don't know a single software dev over 40 who isn't employed, and I know many that age. None of them had to change fields. Some are managers, but most are "senior" devs. Many of these guys have been programming internet technologies since the later 90's. It seems in the places I've lived (LA, DC) the salaries are pretty squashed together after 5 years experience. Basically anyone with that experience is getting a si…

I'm approaching 50, am employed, though I've found that the job search is a bit harder now-- particularly with bay area startups I saw a %100 correlation: If the interview as on video (eg: they could see the white in my beard) I didn't get a second interview. If by phone (no video) I'd get offers. Also, last year in Austin I made exactly %20 more than I did in Seattle in 2000. Kinda sad-- up %20 in 15 years-- that do…

> white in my beard

What about tinting ("dieing?" sorry for not knowing the word in English) your hair? It's superficial, but if it lands a job, it's fair.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#106

Post by jmspring » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 7:11 AM UTC

phamilton wrote: post #92

jmspring wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is an interesting option if you have the foresight. If you are in your twenties, someone in their 40s can teach you a thing or two. If you plan on living the life of a hermit workaholic, certainly reasonable with your life circumstances. If you have a family, want to travel, or want to buy instead of rent, assuming the Bay Area, very idealistic.

Or buy now and sell in 15 years or so. Move to Boise Idaho. 15 years of equity (ignoring appreciation) means you can buy a house twice the size outright.

Bay Area real estate has picked up, but timing 15 years to sell? Doesn't always work out as well as it could if things have cratered. There have been about three significant real estate collapses in the Bay Area in the last 20-30 years.

Some areas hold up better than others, but, say mountain view, a 20-something at his/her first/second job, unless has other means, isn't going to pick up property easily to hold for 15 years.

Affordable areas in a boom? Those most likely to take a serious crap in a downturn.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#107

Post by lifeisstillgood » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 7:12 AM UTC

isomorphic wrote: post #21

bikamonki wrote: post #2

More options: - Go solo. At 40 you should be experienced enough to handle up to mid-sized projects, alone and on a reasonable time-frame. Try to pick projects that your clients will actually use, with new features and support contracts you will have steady income for the long-term. - Go startup. Stop thinking you need to come up with the next über-for-x. There are plenty of opportunities for small sass shops that cat…

I'm over 40 and I've always worked as a consultant. Until recently I was the sole developer on a site doing eight figures in revenue (now I'm team lead). Without being arrogant here, if my skills match but someone doesn't want my level of experience, it's not a good sign for the someone. On the flip side, I would love to throw out all of the languages and frameworks I've been using for the past few years and learn en…

Did you grow the site into 8 figures or brought on board? What was the site doing? I would imagine management would be terrified of reliance on one, bus-getting-hit-by developer.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#108

Post by siberianbear » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 7:14 AM UTC

Afforess wrote: post #47

I see no one else has mentioned another, even more obvious solution. Retire . With the sky-high salaries it is possible to earn as a software engineer, it should be straightforward (not easy, but still straightforward nonetheless), to save enough to retire at the age of 40. After which, you can spend your remaining time as you see fit, working on personal projects or any other hobby that suits your fancy. This is the…

It's possible. I did it. I am 43 and I retired when I was 40. I lived frugally in Silicon Valley and saved and consistently invested more than half of my income.

It was a decision I made when I was 23. I remember doing a spreadsheet at that time to plan it all out. This was back before there were good references on how to plan it out. Some of my assumptions were a bit off, but I got there in the end.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#109

Post by Cupof37 » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 7:14 AM UTC

LoSboccacc wrote: post #80

derrekl wrote: post #69

I don't know a single software dev over 40 who isn't employed, and I know many that age. None of them had to change fields. Some are managers, but most are "senior" devs. Many of these guys have been programming internet technologies since the later 90's. It seems in the places I've lived (LA, DC) the salaries are pretty squashed together after 5 years experience. Basically anyone with that experience is getting a si…

pay squash is why you should get out of field. engineering is the new proletariat, working at companies that rake in millions for pennies, while all managers above you get twice your pay just by organizing your time.

Let's not confuse engineering with programming. Most programmers aren't engineers (don't have engineering degrees, aren't comfortable with physics / calculus, etc.) Real engineers generally don't have these employment issues as they age.

Programmers are 'engineers' in the same way that those with an MCSE are 'engineers' -- they operate a computer and employ a unique and useful skill-set.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#110

Post by RomanPushkin » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 7:23 AM UTC

Best advice: build your shit.

No matter how much time it takes, 1 year, 2, 3.

If it doesn't work and you don't earn enough, build your shit.

During your career you'll be able to build 3-5 relatively big projects. And about 10-30 small projects and ideas.

And if you're lucky enough, you won't worry about that anymore.

I earned x3 salary 5 years ago. I had freedom, and I could work 5-10 hours a week. But finally my project has failed. Lesson learned. Now I'm far behind these figures.

But I keep on trying building shit. Hopefully, I'll be able to turn it to successful business one day.