FML I turn 40 in May ... And your right it's time to man up and honor alone
Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)
51–60 of 303 posts
Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)
#52Are there really people out there who actually believe that programmers are washed up by the time they hit 30?
I'm not kidding... do people really believe this? I always thought that was a fairy tale that employers tell to still-wet-behind-the-ears kids in order to pump up their egos so that they work untenable hours for meager pay
Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)
#53I see no one else has mentioned another, even more obvious solution. Retire . With the sky-high salaries it is possible to earn as a software engineer, it should be straightforward (not easy, but still straightforward nonetheless), to save enough to retire at the age of 40. After which, you can spend your remaining time as you see fit, working on personal projects or any other hobby that suits your fancy. This is the…
It is an interesting option if you have the foresight. If you are in your twenties, someone in their 40s can teach you a thing or two.
If you plan on living the life of a hermit workaholic, certainly reasonable with your life circumstances.
If you have a family, want to travel, or want to buy instead of rent, assuming the Bay Area, very idealistic.
Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)
#54Lets see every 20-30 year old we have brought in the past 3 years: A) Is so arrogant they think they know it all. Then when they turn in the code it's barely passable and it become clear they are going to be difficult to work with. B) Are overly emotional and they all take things way too seriously. Now every 35+ person we have brought in for a project is: A) Professional. Gets the job done and very well. B) Sees the…
"B) Are overly emotional and they all take things way too seriously." This can be a positive. My experience with 40+ year olds is that they tend to sacrifice user experience/security for what they know. "Our customers won't care if they have to use Internet Explorer with ActiveX as long as it gets the job done." My point is that an experienced programmer who is not up to date can be as detrimental an arrogant 20 year…
Depending on what industry you're in, it's quite possible that your users won't care if they have to use Internet Explorer with ActiveX. A number of older and slower-to-change industries still require IE6 on corporate computers; supporting anything other than that is counterproductive, because their employers' IT departments won't permit them to load other browsers anyway.
I can't know if you're in one of these industries, but one of the virtues of experience is knowing when something isn't important because you know facts about your particular niche that an outsider wouldn't.
Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)
#55This article is wrong on the facts, but more dangerously offers wrong advice on life choices.
23 years ago, when I was 23 years old, I actually posted a Usenet question on this topic (archived somewhere?) asking where were all of the "old" programmers?
First off, people don't decpreciate, skill sets do. Of course someone making a high salary will be undesirable if their skills stay the same and become commoditized or less relevant. But the same would be true of a young person with the same salary/skills. Every time this happens the challenge becomes finding the next niche that is valuable, and that you like enough to devote lots of time to.
Secondly, a lot of older folks get siphoned off to management voluntarily. This can happen when a company doesn't have equal career ladders for tech and management. At good software companies you can advance as individual contributor up to a VP level, while other companies force a switch to management to continue progressing. And of course a few are natural leaders of people who want run a group, or try a cross functional gig. Some feel it's more prestigious to be director of whatever dept.
On age discrimination in tech, I hear about it anecdotaly, but haven't yet perceived it happening to me. Maybe it's just too early to notice, or maybe there will always be some people in tech who want to work with the best team possible regardless of age? Would I hire an 80 year old developer? They'd get the same questions as any 25 year old. Show me the code you've written over the last year. Shoe me how you communicate complex concepts in simple ways. Are you a dick to work with?
On being too expensive, the reality is there is an effective salary cap for everyone which is a function of company, role, skills, location, etc. You need to know what the cap is and realize if a company balks at going over it then it may have nothing to do with age. The calculus is what it is, older people are just more likely to hit the caps first.
Finally I must disagree with the comments I see about young people being less capable. Yes, experience is irreplaceable in certain contexts. However more often I notice the people doing really great work are a special minority of individuals that just have the right combination of smarts, drive, maturity, flexibility, luck, etc.
I'll try to remember to follow up on this post in another 23 years to discuss what has changed.
Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)
#56Don't specialize in things that depreciate as rapidly as programming languages! C++ experience is quickly getting less relevant over time, but stochastic calculus, digital signal processing, machine learning, and distributed systems aren't. Some of those specialties get more valuable; in fact, sometimes, the forces that make things like C++ less valuable actually clear the way for things like distributed systems to b…
>Don't specialize in things that depreciate as rapidly as programming languages C has been around since 1972 and is just as relevant as ever even as the popularity of C++ wanes. Python has been around since 1991 and is growing in popularity. There is a trick to figuring out which technologies will stick around for the long haul, and it is one which most developers don't even think to try and hone. My career advice wo…
I am a C programmer. C is my first language. I have shipped C code. I'm pretty sure I've literally shipped C code, in shrink-wrapped boxes. I took my kids to the museum today and hung out in the cafe pushing commits while they wandered around. What was I hacking on? A C compiler.
C is less relevant now than it was in 1996. A lot less relevant. Way, way, way less relevant. In 1996, most serious software was written in C. Today, only a tiny fraction of it is.
Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)
#57Lets see every 20-30 year old we have brought in the past 3 years: A) Is so arrogant they think they know it all. Then when they turn in the code it's barely passable and it become clear they are going to be difficult to work with. B) Are overly emotional and they all take things way too seriously. Now every 35+ person we have brought in for a project is: A) Professional. Gets the job done and very well. B) Sees the…
"B) Are overly emotional and they all take things way too seriously." This can be a positive. My experience with 40+ year olds is that they tend to sacrifice user experience/security for what they know. "Our customers won't care if they have to use Internet Explorer with ActiveX as long as it gets the job done." My point is that an experienced programmer who is not up to date can be as detrimental an arrogant 20 year…
> Background - Got really pissed off at a 40+ dev...
Why generalize from one encounter with one 40+ year old developer?
Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)
#58Don't specialize in things that depreciate as rapidly as programming languages! C++ experience is quickly getting less relevant over time, but stochastic calculus, digital signal processing, machine learning, and distributed systems aren't. Some of those specialties get more valuable; in fact, sometimes, the forces that make things like C++ less valuable actually clear the way for things like distributed systems to b…
Yes, abstracting knowledge to the point of not being able to use or think in basic primitives is often counterproductive.
I can't think of a great example. It can apply to anything. Though your larger point stands, C++ is a not so great example. Many languages are roller coasters or extremely specialized. In contrast, C++ is on another upswing with C++11/14/17. It's used practically everywhere, especially in graphics, systems, and game development. A point worth mentioning is that good C and C++ developers are often capable of adapting to other languages and settings quickly. They're used to a lot of basic building blocks.
Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)
#59i'd suggest that intelligent employers realize that the language and stack are only a very small part of building a product. The more interesting problems are hard not due to language, but due to algorithms, data structuring, design patters and general architecting et al. The 10yr C++ programmer ought to have those things nailed, the junior may not know they even exist.
that's a good suggestion. it will fall on deaf ears because employers don't read anything on the Internet and they hate engineers, especially old ones. they can't get basic things like don't sexually harass employees right, so how are they going to get age discrimination right.
You sound burned out by bad employers. Come to the bay area, good ones are legion.
Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
"B) Are overly emotional and they all take things way too seriously." This can be a positive. My experience with 40+ year olds is that they tend to sacrifice user experience/security for what they know. "Our customers won't care if they have to use Internet Explorer with ActiveX as long as it gets the job done." My point is that an experienced programmer who is not up to date can be as detrimental an arrogant 20 year…
Depending on what industry you're in, it's quite possible that your users won't care if they have to use Internet Explorer with ActiveX. A number of older and slower-to-change industries still require IE6 on corporate computers; supporting anything other than that is counterproductive, because their employers' IT departments won't permit them to load other browsers anyway. I can't know if you're in one of these indus…
It is a HIPAA regulated industry that deals with patient data.