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Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

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Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#181

Post by superobserver »

oldmanjay wrote: post #170
superobserver wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that unfounded accusations are unhealthy for discussion, but the nature of the issue at hand involving a state-level power with nigh unlimited resources and the few citizens within the state body attempting to bring attention to this issue would suggest that suspicions of this sort aren't unfounded and aren't necessarily damaging to the discussion itself. Censoring discussion of this kind is probably the most…

I disagree entirely. Accusing someone of shilling doesn't contribute meaningfully unless it can be proved, and proved with damning evidence. Anything else is rhetorical bluster meant to distract and has no place in a discussion.

I didn't say a baseless accusation is legitimate, I said that suggesting such a possibility is legitimate, especially in this case.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#182

Post by Estragon »

LLWM wrote: post #103
Estragon wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snowden is very explicit that his goal was not to drive policy in any particular direction, only to allow informed, democratic debate about what the NSA is doing. He decided to come forward when he saw that the NSA lies to its congressional oversight committee, which is completely undemocratic.

The NSA is very explicit that their goal is to perform legal surveillance to safeguard the security of the US. Since the truth is secret, to believe either party's goals are as they say is purely a matter of trust.

The NSA has been proven to lie to its overseers repeatedly over the course of decades while Snowden has been proven to lie to the NSA in order to expose its lies. Personally, I regard Snowden's behavior to be more trustworthy in this respect.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#183

Post by rudolf0 »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #18
AnkhMorporkian wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of us truly believe that Snowden went too far. Calling all of us shills is counter-productive, dismissive, and extremely standoffish.

The NSA went too far by violating the constitutional rights of US citizens, both on US soil and abroad. I'm unaware of how you can go "too far" when directing sunlight on corruption and illegal activities perpetrated by an arm of your own government.

The way I see it: the NSA is a necessary evil in many ways, and not all of their activities are unethical. I have no problem with the leaking of documents regarding domestic surveillance or breaches into private companies in allied nations; I think these are clearly unethical activities on the NSA's part. But almost everything was released or is in the process of being released, including a lot of legitimate intelligence activity and research into actual criminals and enemy states (North Korea, Iran, etc.), as well as details about various technology of which there was no evidence of unethical use.

I don't think all of those documents had to be released for the point to be made. A lot of them, sure, but not all of them.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#184

Post by Lerc »

borgia wrote: post #3

It has already been covered over with tarp and the letting removed[1]. It's a wonderful piece of work with excellent sentiment behind it. Unfortunately it doesn't suit the government and mainstream media narrative, so I'm sure the act of its erection will be decried as liberal terrorism and vandalism, the piece taken down and Snowden-related news once again brushed over. [1] http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/brookl…

Their point about the image of the bust remains. The fact that they covered the bust with a tarp itself creates an image with a message.

Consider the mentality of obscuring the bust with something that is even uglier. It is not a statement on the aesthetics of the work. It is literally saying "You may not look upon this unsanctioned idea"

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#185

Post by superobserver »

Semiapies wrote: post #166
AnkhMorporkian wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all NSA operations occur within server farms, cubicles, and offices. They have agents, they have listening posts, they have people with assets in dangerous countries. I have no idea if that information was in Snowden's massive data dump, but that's the point; no one does. He dumped a shitload of data and it's doubtful if even he knows everything that's in there.

I have no idea Correct. You have no evidence or plausible argument for characterizing what's in the dump or for making your assertion that Snowden himself doesn't know what's in the dump. You only have ominous generalities to hint about. Unlike other posters, I don't care whether you're a shill. There are many people around the world who will say what you say - and much worse things - without taking a dime. I submit…

Pretending to be informed about that which we have little information is indeed the epitome of misinforming others. Added to which the public information we do have surrounding this issue, it is difficult to suggest seriously and truthfully that the dragnet benefits anyone other than those in the NSA itself (I mean as an entity unto itself), seeing that it has practically no sensible oversight for its actions.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#186

Post by AnkhMorporkian »

Semiapies wrote: post #166
AnkhMorporkian wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all NSA operations occur within server farms, cubicles, and offices. They have agents, they have listening posts, they have people with assets in dangerous countries. I have no idea if that information was in Snowden's massive data dump, but that's the point; no one does. He dumped a shitload of data and it's doubtful if even he knows everything that's in there.

I have no idea Correct. You have no evidence or plausible argument for characterizing what's in the dump or for making your assertion that Snowden himself doesn't know what's in the dump. You only have ominous generalities to hint about. Unlike other posters, I don't care whether you're a shill. There are many people around the world who will say what you say - and much worse things - without taking a dime. I submit…

I'm not the one turning this into an us vs. them thing, I think reforms need to be made. I think that many of the things released have already far exceeded the scope of constitutional abuses, and there's no reason to believe there aren't more of them in the pipeline.

If you want change, it might be best not to alienate the 45% of Americans who believe that Snowden went too far or the 56% who believe that he should be charged. The NSA and Snowden issues are two separate things that are linked by a common thread.

I believe the NSA is abusing its power and needs to be changed. I also believe Snowden released vast amounts of classified data, not all of it in a legitimate whistleblower role. If that makes me a bad person who is engaging in misinformation somehow, so be it. I'm willing to accept that other people believe differently, and I believe that people should extend that courtesy to others instead of insulting them.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#187

Post by Karunamon »

Lawtonfogle wrote: post #160
tomjen3 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That monument, if anything, belongs to the city and thus its people. As for political speech I am quite okay with the rule that you can put up any bust that you have made for your own money, as a private citizen, so long as it is of that quality. I doubt the rule would be abused much.

You can be well assured some religious group is going to use this to put up some religious symbol, after which some non-religious group is going to put up another demonic thinking chair.

We have the establishment clause to deal with that particular kind of abuse - this is completely nonreligious.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#188

Post by tessierashpool »

plainOldText wrote: post #62

It's interesting to see that these people (1) installed the bust in such a way that it can be easily removed without damaging the existing structure and (2) went to great lengths to ensure that the new design is honoring the aesthetics that were already in place. One can argue otherwise, but I think this is a very creative and considerate form of protest which btw is also non-violent.

Snowden's a hero and deserves his place on that memorial.

This whole deal with the people putting up a statue of a hero and the government tearing it down? Not what America's supposed to be about.

Combine that with the fact that most of the senators who voted for the Patriot Act probably read 1984, and didn't object to the obvious propaganda in the name Patriot Act? Not what America's supposed to be about either.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#189

Post by [deleted] »

jnorthrop wrote: post #22
wildmusings wrote: post #4

This is disgusting. Snowden lost any legitimacy he may have had as a whistle-blower when he started exposing the unquestionably legitimate foreign intelligence activities and capabilities of the United States. You have to be naive to think the Russians are harboring him without something in exchange: even more information about our foreign intelligence activities. This traitor's bust does not belong among the remains…

Please do not downvote marcoperaza's post because you disagree with it. That goes against the spirit and intent of this site. Make your own argument to counter instead.

[deleted]

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#190

Post by tessierashpool »

genericuser wrote: post #131
borgia wrote: post #3

It has already been covered over with tarp and the letting removed[1]. It's a wonderful piece of work with excellent sentiment behind it. Unfortunately it doesn't suit the government and mainstream media narrative, so I'm sure the act of its erection will be decried as liberal terrorism and vandalism, the piece taken down and Snowden-related news once again brushed over. [1] http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/brookl…

I like part of Ruth Goldstein's, one of the park conservancy founders, response in that article. While I am fairly confident that asking and trying to go through legitimate channels to get the bust put up would not of worked, what she said makes me think there are at least people who would consider it, although probably not high enough in power structures to actually get it done. “The park is such a symbol of America…

“The park is such a symbol of American liberty; that’s what it’s all about, the founding principals of it,” she said. “It (the bust) is almost appropriate but inappropriate to do it (put up illegally).”

As if the establishment of American liberty didn't involve breaking any laws in the first place.

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