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Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

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Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#61

Post by Estragon »

Semiapies wrote: post #37
AnkhMorporkian wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Say that a CIA field agent or team is found doing illegal and unethical things (it's happened before many times,) would it be "too far" to release the entire list of CIA field agents and their covers around the world to two journalists at a foreign newspaper because of that one group of agents? It absolutely would be and would potentially put shitloads of lives at risk. Snowden basically did the same thing with the N…

"the entire list of CIA field agents and their covers around the world" Not released. Not even plausibly given to "Greenwald & Co." It's telling that you jump to a ridiculous supposed analogy of endangered CIA field agents when we're talking "operations" safely carried out in secure server farms, cubicles, and offices.

I think it was an act of desperation to some extent. People had already been convincingly reporting the broad outlines of NSA's surveillance activities for the better part of a decade and no one seemed to care. It probably took an extended, highly specific information dump to get people to take notice.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#62

Post by plainOldText »

It's interesting to see that these people (1) installed the bust in such a way that it can be easily removed without damaging the existing structure and (2) went to great lengths to ensure that the new design is honoring the aesthetics that were already in place.

One can argue otherwise, but I think this is a very creative and considerate form of protest which btw is also non-violent.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#63

Post by Estragon »

adamnemecek wrote: post #54
LLWM wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And why do you think he did that?

I agree that his goal was changing policy. Nevertheless he does not have the power to make policy on his own. The power to change policy rests ultimately in the democratic process. And giving the public the info required to make good policy seems pretty fair to me. The public could have chosen/can choose to ignore his leaks.

Snowden is very explicit that his goal was not to drive policy in any particular direction, only to allow informed, democratic debate about what the NSA is doing. He decided to come forward when he saw that the NSA lies to its congressional oversight committee, which is completely undemocratic.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#64

Post by njharman »

yodsanklai wrote: post #43
rglover wrote: post #35

Seeing them cover this thing up is a hideous moment in our history: https://vine.co/v/eBBvedaHtBz . Shameful that something so harmless is immediately covered up (quite literally) because it challenges the state. The U.S. is getting scarier by the day, folks.

> Shameful that something so harmless is immediately covered up (quite literally) because it challenges the state. Playing devil's advocate here, but would have they done differently with an other bust? maybe it's just forbidden to put a statue in a park without authorization.

You don't cover over forbidden things, only embarrassing things.

That is the scary part, although not new. Is the authorities deeming information and political statements as dangerous and needing to be censored. Make sure more people don't hear about this and start asking questions like why do some people venerate as a here, this guy the government says is a traitor.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#65

Post by mariodiana »

jronald wrote: post #40

Coopting memorials this way bothers me, especially in the case where the person being idealized would have been against it. I do appreciate the relevancy of the memorial being used. Using the location and its history as a running point for a demonstration / gathering would have been more impactful as well as being respectful to the purpose of the memorial.

My support for Edward Snowden is unstinting. Nevertheless, I think what they've done here is wrong. In my opinion, they desecrate another monument, and they have no business doing so.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#66

Post by rhino369 »

ceejayoz wrote: post #23
teammatters wrote: post #20

Why is Edward Snowden a hero? He divulged sensitive U.S. documents and information that now bad actors use to exploit/harm the US. Further, he knew what he was doing was against the law and ran as far away as he could to avoid facing the consequences(Bradley, now Chelsea Manning as far as I know didnt run like a coward). Now he's a pawn between Russia and US relations. The information he divulged that we are being wa…

He disclosed evidence of wrongdoing and illegal activity by the NSA, making him a whistleblower. He ran away to avoid the extrajudicial punishment Chelsea Manning experienced - years of pre-trial solitary confinement with such privileges as clothing being arbitrarily revoked. You can't say that the information he divulged was both known and sensitive without being pretty laughable, by the way.

>He disclosed evidence of wrongdoing and illegal activity by the NSA, making him a whistleblower.

The only illegal things he disclosed was that some NSA agents/employees illegally used their tools to track ex-gfs and stuff.

All the rest is completely legal. The country had a public debating about warrantless wiretaps and congress wrote laws about it. The NSA follows those laws.

He released the information because he had a political problem with them. That cannot be allowed. I wouldn't call it traitorous, but it was a massive violation of state secrecy laws.

Though, some of his actions since are at least flirting with traitorous behavior. He has released information about US spying on other governments. What the fuck did he think the NSA did? That was its raison d'être.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#67

Post by sjs382 »

jronald wrote: post #40

Coopting memorials this way bothers me, especially in the case where the person being idealized would have been against it. I do appreciate the relevancy of the memorial being used. Using the location and its history as a running point for a demonstration / gathering would have been more impactful as well as being respectful to the purpose of the memorial.

Agreed. I love the sentiment behind this, but lets not deface existing monuments/memorials.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#68

Post by ryan_j_naughton »

hueving wrote: post #50
borgia wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The U.S. is getting scarier by the day, folks. It really is. The facade of democracy is very quickly being peeled back to reveal something utterly terrifying. The response from the people has been the most disappointing and depressing thing though. The random sampling in NYC, of all places in the US, by Oliver's show was a brutal reminder of the mindset of the average person there.

>The facade of democracy >The response from the people has been the most disappointing Which one is it? Is it that democracy has failed, or is it that the majority don't care about this particular topic?

You are supposing that they are separate/independent failings when in reality they are linked.

The way the government and the media demonized Snowden and fed the public misinformation was designed to get people to not care about this issue.

By attacking Snowden and misrepresenting the facts (such as congressmen claiming he was certainly working for foreign intelligence agencies), they muddied the waters and left people confused and consequently apathetic.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#69

Post by Estragon »

jnorthrop wrote: post #22
wildmusings wrote: post #4

This is disgusting. Snowden lost any legitimacy he may have had as a whistle-blower when he started exposing the unquestionably legitimate foreign intelligence activities and capabilities of the United States. You have to be naive to think the Russians are harboring him without something in exchange: even more information about our foreign intelligence activities. This traitor's bust does not belong among the remains…

Please do not downvote marcoperaza's post because you disagree with it. That goes against the spirit and intent of this site. Make your own argument to counter instead.

Although a string of deceptive fallacies does constitute an argument, that doesn't mean it contributes anything to informed discussion. "...the unquestionably legitimate foreign intelligence activities and capabilities of the United States" is just an appeal to authority. "You have to be naive to think the Russians are harboring him without something in exchange" is just a failure of imagination, and/or jingoistic bigotry. "This traitor's bust does not belong among the remains of fallen heroes" is just name-calling.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#70

Post by ceejayoz »

rhino369 wrote: post #66
ceejayoz wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He disclosed evidence of wrongdoing and illegal activity by the NSA, making him a whistleblower. He ran away to avoid the extrajudicial punishment Chelsea Manning experienced - years of pre-trial solitary confinement with such privileges as clothing being arbitrarily revoked. You can't say that the information he divulged was both known and sensitive without being pretty laughable, by the way.

>He disclosed evidence of wrongdoing and illegal activity by the NSA, making him a whistleblower. The only illegal things he disclosed was that some NSA agents/employees illegally used their tools to track ex-gfs and stuff. All the rest is completely legal. The country had a public debating about warrantless wiretaps and congress wrote laws about it. The NSA follows those laws. He released the information because he…

> All the rest is completely legal.

That's a bold assertion not borne out by the facts. Examples:

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/judge-deals-nsa-defeat-bulk-p...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/indepe...

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