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Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

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Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#101

Post by hackuser »

majke wrote: post #8
wildmusings wrote: post #4

This is disgusting. Snowden lost any legitimacy he may have had as a whistle-blower when he started exposing the unquestionably legitimate foreign intelligence activities and capabilities of the United States. You have to be naive to think the Russians are harboring him without something in exchange: even more information about our foreign intelligence activities. This traitor's bust does not belong among the remains…

Sir. Edward does not expose anything. It's the journalists that choose the material. He made it very explicit from the start. > You have to be naive to think the Russians are harboring him Can you please provide a source? The quality of this comment is something I'd expect from a 50 cent army. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_brigades [EDIT] Softened language.

> The quality of this comment is something I'd expect from a 50 cent army.

I have two objections to this comment:

1) It's inappropriate; the grandfather's comment can stand on its own merits

2) You think you can detect shills based on quality. It doesn't take much intelligence to figure out how to shill in a convincing manner. Maybe you can catch the morons, but anyone who puts much thought into their shilling operation won't be caught so easily. If you look around you can find articles describing the sophisticated methods and training that go into conning people in this way.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#102

Post by ics »

pharke wrote: post #89
hullo wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you'd done the same thing with a bust of your mother 10 years ago, they'd have covered it up as well. Try the same thing (with Snowden, or your mother) in France or China, and see what happens. Just because they parks department is doing their job doesn't mean democracy is ebbing.

Do you have examples of precedent where this occurred in the U.S.? If not, you're simply speculating based on your own opinion/mood/blood sugar level. Graffiti is rarely covered up so quickly unless it is found to be particularly offensive. My personal belief is that this statue was deemed to be politically offensive and inciting as well as likely to draw media exposure and so was quickly removed from view even thoug…

Err... we're talking about an installation in one of the most heavily trafficked park systems in the world. I'm surprised it stayed up long enough for some stranger to get a video of it. Sure, there are neglected parks in NYC but the Ft. Greene / Prison Ship Martyrs' Monument is not one of them.

http://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/fort-greene-park/inspection... For fun.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#103

Post by LLWM »

Estragon wrote: post #63
adamnemecek wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that his goal was changing policy. Nevertheless he does not have the power to make policy on his own. The power to change policy rests ultimately in the democratic process. And giving the public the info required to make good policy seems pretty fair to me. The public could have chosen/can choose to ignore his leaks.

Snowden is very explicit that his goal was not to drive policy in any particular direction, only to allow informed, democratic debate about what the NSA is doing. He decided to come forward when he saw that the NSA lies to its congressional oversight committee, which is completely undemocratic.

The NSA is very explicit that their goal is to perform legal surveillance to safeguard the security of the US. Since the truth is secret, to believe either party's goals are as they say is purely a matter of trust.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#104

Post by rosser »

hristov wrote: post #87
hullo wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you'd done the same thing with a bust of your mother 10 years ago, they'd have covered it up as well. Try the same thing (with Snowden, or your mother) in France or China, and see what happens. Just because they parks department is doing their job doesn't mean democracy is ebbing.

I don't think so. If it is something unauthorized they probably would have removed it in due time. I.e., they would have taken a couple of days to hire professionals to do it. Now they immediately cover it up so that no-one can see it while they arrange for its removal. Why? Obviously they do not want anyone to look at it before it is removed. But why not? It is certainly not offensive in any way. It may prove to be…

> It really does remind one of soviet style suppression.

If by "one" you mean "you", maybe.

No-one is getting gulag-ed or shot for doing this. To liken this response to Soviet-era human rights abuses betrays a pretty myopic view, IMO.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#106

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

rosser wrote: post #86
rglover wrote: post #35

Seeing them cover this thing up is a hideous moment in our history: https://vine.co/v/eBBvedaHtBz . Shameful that something so harmless is immediately covered up (quite literally) because it challenges the state. The U.S. is getting scarier by the day, folks.

So it would be shameful of me to cover up your political speech when it's inflicted upon my property without my permission? Look, I emphatically believe in what Snowden did (though I may have some quibbles with his methods, his reasons were exemplary). I don't think that justifies what amounts to glorified — if tastefully done, and in keeping with the aesthetics of the monument — vandalism. This is a war memorial . H…

Your property? The monument is no more yours than it is mine. And since you asked, it would feel like someone understood the relative importance of things. It would feel like they hadn't died in vain, for an unappreciative, lethargic citizenry.

>appropriated for someone else's ends?

Appropriated for the same ends for which the original memorial was commemorating. The ends are the same.

Let's also include some perspective. The monument does not appear to be irreparably harmed. So, vandalism, technically, but definitely not comparable to the Sack of Rome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Rome_%28455%29

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#108

Post by superobserver »

hristov wrote: post #87
hullo wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you'd done the same thing with a bust of your mother 10 years ago, they'd have covered it up as well. Try the same thing (with Snowden, or your mother) in France or China, and see what happens. Just because they parks department is doing their job doesn't mean democracy is ebbing.

I don't think so. If it is something unauthorized they probably would have removed it in due time. I.e., they would have taken a couple of days to hire professionals to do it. Now they immediately cover it up so that no-one can see it while they arrange for its removal. Why? Obviously they do not want anyone to look at it before it is removed. But why not? It is certainly not offensive in any way. It may prove to be…

Not just Soviet-style suppression, but state sponsored censorship. While the local rules of the park may deem that this is simply vandalism, I fail to recall such instances in the US demanding this kind of censoring and it should be pointed out a little more saliently in the article for appropriate effect.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#109

Post by AnkhMorporkian »

rosser wrote: post #93
AnkhMorporkian wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Say that a CIA field agent or team is found doing illegal and unethical things (it's happened before many times,) would it be "too far" to release the entire list of CIA field agents and their covers around the world to two journalists at a foreign newspaper because of that one group of agents? It absolutely would be and would potentially put shitloads of lives at risk. Snowden basically did the same thing with the N…

Nice strawman.

I wasn't attacking a position, it can't be a strawman. It was an analogy and an explanation of my position.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#110

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

Someone1234 wrote: post #95
fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's amazing. Now if only the public works department could respond to potholes that quickly.

That is an interesting point. People here are saying (paraphrasing) "they'd take down any busk that wasn't authorised" and while I believe that to be true, it ignores the fact of just how QUICKLY this one got taken down. Less than six hours? How long does other graffiti take to be removed, days, weeks, months?

Yeah, I made my point in a snarky way, but there is definitely a political component to the swiftness of the action. It'd have been great if the job had to be submitted to a months long queue.
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