How doctors choose to die (2012) • Hacker News Board

Re: How doctors choose to die (2012)

#51

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Mar 25, 2015, 9:03 AM UTC

jodrellblank wrote: post #38

michaelochurch wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this makes accepting death easier, the good news is the near-death experience. While I certainly don't intend to convince you that it's an afterlife experience (because no one knows quite what they are) it is typically positive and very powerful. Subjectively, it's an intense spiritual experience that seems to be unmatched by most things in life. As for whether it's entrance into an afterlife or the shutdown seque…

The two main disagreements I have with this are, one that I can't put into words very clearly and will come back to, and my generally repetitive comment on these issues that you - MichaelOChurch2015 - weren't born, you were made by your life experiences. A child was born, a nearly blank slate, and formed into 'you' by experiences. The idea that you could have been born "somewhere else" or "to someone else" or "in ano…

[deleted]

Re: How doctors choose to die (2012)

#52

Post by pikachu_is_cool » Wed, Mar 25, 2015, 9:47 AM UTC

letstryagain wrote: post #33

sago wrote: post #15

This is anecdotal evidence from a small (2) sample. But not all doctors die without treatment at home. Some (many?) are aware of the drugs they need to hasten their demise in a way that minimises their suffering. One doctor I discussed this with said that assisted suicide, in a very limited and measured way, isn't uncommon, if you know what to look for. As someone with a degenerative incurable condition, I'd like the…

> being alive has a 100% mortality rate. Well we assume it does but so far only about 95%

Wow... when you put it that way, you wonder why we aren't making more progress than we already are.

Re: How doctors choose to die (2012)

#53

Post by the_gipsy » Wed, Mar 25, 2015, 10:10 AM UTC

sago wrote: post #20

themartorana wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really hard to change perceptions about death when it requires considering one's own mortality. It is in this only that I understand the desperate quest for religion. The idea of going dark forever is terrifying to me, and considering I'm pretty much an atheist, I don't have much hope of anything else. When people ask me if I'm religious, I usually tell them I'm hopeful that I'm proven wrong. I know we all die.…

It doesn't frighten me. It won't go dark forever. Just as there was no 13.5bn years of darkness before I was born. There will be no qualia of time. I think attitudes are changing. The campaign to be able to determine how and when we die is shaping up to be a significant battle for a fundamental civil right. I think we'll win it. Whether it is soon enough for my wife to avoid threat of prosecution if she is with me wh…

> It doesn't frighten me.

I don't think that's entirely true - it's just that all functioning members of society displace or ignore their fear of death with some method. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_anxiety_%28psychology%29

Re: How doctors choose to die (2012)

#54

Post by realityking » Wed, Mar 25, 2015, 10:20 AM UTC

wjkm wrote: post #28

sago wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this is getting OT, so apologies. And thank you for the second paragraph. But I'm interested in the first. To me it doesn't seem like I will cease to be, in any meaningful way. To cease to have something is to have it at some point but not another. I will never experience not being. So I find it hard to worry about that. Of course I enjoy being, but it's not like I would rather be than not be, because the latt…

Yes, you're exactly right. I think one of the reasons a lot of people get anxious and scared about death is because they think that when they die they're going to be locked up in a dark room forever... but you won't, because non-existence is not an experience. As Alan Watts put it, death will be just like going to sleep and never waking up, just as being born was waking up never having gone to sleep.

Isn't that even scarier?

All my thoughts, memories, ideas, experiences will be gone, just vanished.

Unlike @themartorana, I'm somewhat religious (or maybe spiritual would be a better word, as I recognize how much religion is influenced by man) but like he hopes to be proven wrong I'm terrified of being mistaken.

Re: How doctors choose to die (2012)

#55

Post by ColinWright » Wed, Mar 25, 2015, 10:44 AM UTC

And the bowl of petunias said: Oh no, not again.

For those interested in the collective wisdom of the HN community, here are some previous discussions:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3313570 : 1206 days ago | 177 comments

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4865742 : 841 days ago | no comments

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5017104 : 807 days ago | no comments

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5104430 : 790 days ago | 94 comments

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6040804 : 618 days ago | 1 comment

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6767385 : 489 days ago | no comments

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7446014 : 368 days ago | 2 comments

Re: How doctors choose to die (2012)

#56

Post by im2w1l » Wed, Mar 25, 2015, 10:48 AM UTC

shiven wrote: post #21

sho_hn wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engineers have a peculiar relationship with doctors. When they have need of one, and the doctor decides on a treatment plan for them, they think about the complexity of the problem space the doctor had to navigate to reach that decision. They wish the doctor would chart the parameter space for them, so they can agree or disagree with the choice in an informed manner, and have more of a clue about the competence of th…

Or, as a (former) doctor, I love telling my engineer friends: Intuition can't be formalized. Part of the reason simply being the "system level" thinking that has to be developed, practiced and honed by any doctor worth his/her salt. And when you think of it, even with our current understanding of the human organism and the phenomenon called life, we are primarily working using 'heuristics', barely glimpsing the ultra…

Want to bet? I'll bet that in 20 years we will have programs that can diagnose a patient and explain how it came to its conclusions.

Re: How doctors choose to die (2012)

#57

Post by Ntrails » Wed, Mar 25, 2015, 11:15 AM UTC

the_gipsy wrote: post #53

sago wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't frighten me. It won't go dark forever. Just as there was no 13.5bn years of darkness before I was born. There will be no qualia of time. I think attitudes are changing. The campaign to be able to determine how and when we die is shaping up to be a significant battle for a fundamental civil right. I think we'll win it. Whether it is soon enough for my wife to avoid threat of prosecution if she is with me wh…

> It doesn't frighten me. I don't think that's entirely true - it's just that all functioning members of society displace or ignore their fear of death with some method. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_anxiety_%28psychology%29

Why in gods name would I be frightened of oblivion? Dying is terrifying, because it comes with implications of suffering. No longer existing is simply enthralling. I will simply be gone. A just reward for making it through a lifetime imo.

Re: How doctors choose to die (2012)

#58

Post by the_gipsy » Wed, Mar 25, 2015, 12:02 PM UTC

Ntrails wrote: post #57

the_gipsy wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It doesn't frighten me. I don't think that's entirely true - it's just that all functioning members of society displace or ignore their fear of death with some method. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_anxiety_%28psychology%29

Why in gods name would I be frightened of oblivion? Dying is terrifying, because it comes with implications of suffering. No longer existing is simply enthralling. I will simply be gone. A just reward for making it through a lifetime imo.

I can't tell you why the thought of ceasing to exist would be frightening. It simply is to me, and I believe to most people. And most people, including me, ignore it and focus on the joys of life. There are of course different degrees of this displacement, some people may still acknowledge the idea but others might completely convince themselves that there is nothing to be scared of - or maybe there really is a way to enjoy a finite life span.

Mind you that this a very intimate and subjective topic, and I am not saying that you are fooling yourself, but from someone who is indeed scared of death (the end of life), it does seem plausible.

Re: How doctors choose to die (2012)

#59

Post by arfliw » Wed, Mar 25, 2015, 12:07 PM UTC

ColinWright wrote: post #55

And the bowl of petunias said: Oh no, not again. For those interested in the collective wisdom of the HN community, here are some previous discussions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3313570 : 1206 days ago | 177 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4865742 : 841 days ago | no comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5017104 : 807 days ago | no comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5104430…

While that certainly is an intimidating set of links you have there, only two of those have any discussion -- one over two years ago, the other nearly four years ago.

Re: How doctors choose to die (2012)

#60

Post by ColinWright » Wed, Mar 25, 2015, 12:12 PM UTC

arfliw wrote: post #59

ColinWright wrote: post #55

And the bowl of petunias said: Oh no, not again. For those interested in the collective wisdom of the HN community, here are some previous discussions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3313570 : 1206 days ago | 177 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4865742 : 841 days ago | no comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5017104 : 807 days ago | no comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5104430…

While that certainly is an intimidating set of links you have there, only two of those have any discussion -- one over two years ago, the other nearly four years ago.

Indeed - has anything changed?

If not, then those discussions are still relevant, and there would be value in skimming them rather than simply repeating all the points again.

If so, then it would be of value to see what has changed, possibly by reading the previous discussions. Perhaps the mood of the audience has changed, perhaps the general opinions of the HN community have shifted.

Either way, being aware of the past is of value.

    Those who cannot remember the past
    are condemned to repeat it.

        -- George Santayana

EDIT: People often misunderstand these back-links. They are not intended to scold people for submitting things that have been submitted before. On the contrary, I believe some things should re-surface from time to time, bringing them back either for the informing of the newer community members, or for re-evaluation in case things have moved on and should be re-considered. My main concern and motivation is that previous contributions should not be wasted.