How doctors choose to die (2012) • Hacker News Board

Re: How doctors choose to die (2012)

#11

Post by jimt67 » Wed, Mar 25, 2015, 1:57 AM UTC

arfliw wrote: post #9

jimt67 wrote: post #7

I thought this was thoughtful and well written but all I see is anecdote...there is no data presented that MDs choose different options than non-MD patients.

Do you have data disproving the anecdotes?

I don't, but when you title an article "How DOCTORS choose to die" (caps added for emphasis) you are making a generalization and supporting it with anecdote. I realize "Doctors' death stories" might be less attention-grabbing but more accurate. I did enjoy the article -- it resonated with me, but I still don't know if doctors choose to die any differently than the rest of us.

Re: How doctors choose to die (2012)

#12

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Mar 25, 2015, 2:00 AM UTC

screature2 wrote: post #5

Can't speak for other people, but the fascination for me is a combination of decisions that are difficult and universal and then watching to see how subject matter experts (who view this stuff on a day to day basis) choose for themselves. I think this invariably results in deeply moving meditations on mortality and dignity from both sides of the table (care provider and patient). Or maybe I'm just suffering a recency…

[deleted]

Re: How doctors choose to die (2012)

#13

Post by dataminer » Wed, Mar 25, 2015, 2:01 AM UTC

jimt67 wrote: post #7

I thought this was thoughtful and well written but all I see is anecdote...there is no data presented that MDs choose different options than non-MD patients.

Here is a study that backups the claim made in the article http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal....

Re: How doctors choose to die (2012)

#14

Post by jimt67 » Wed, Mar 25, 2015, 2:07 AM UTC

dataminer wrote: post #13

jimt67 wrote: post #7

I thought this was thoughtful and well written but all I see is anecdote...there is no data presented that MDs choose different options than non-MD patients.

Here is a study that backups the claim made in the article http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal....

Thank you...exactly the type of information that should have been added to the article (and I should have found in search).

Re: How doctors choose to die (2012)

#15

Post by sago » Wed, Mar 25, 2015, 2:29 AM UTC

This is anecdotal evidence from a small (2) sample. But not all doctors die without treatment at home. Some (many?) are aware of the drugs they need to hasten their demise in a way that minimises their suffering. One doctor I discussed this with said that assisted suicide, in a very limited and measured way, isn't uncommon, if you know what to look for.

As someone with a degenerative incurable condition, I'd like the option of being able to make informed decisions about the end of my life, beyond just refusing treatment. Because spending years dying of starvation (as MS campaigner Debbie Purdy recently did, because she was unable to cope with her symptoms, and there was no other legal recourse to help her die), doesn't fill me with excitement.

We have an insane attitude to death in our culture at the moment. We seem to want to find any way to avoid the fact that being alive has a 100% mortality rate. I think our collective attitude needs to change. And the more articles like this the better.

Re: How doctors choose to die (2012)

#16

Post by afarrell » Wed, Mar 25, 2015, 2:30 AM UTC

sho_hn wrote: post #6

cup wrote: post #2

This has been posted a number of times in different iterations on HN. I'm curious why the user group here has such a fascination with medical doctors.

Engineers have a peculiar relationship with doctors. When they have need of one, and the doctor decides on a treatment plan for them, they think about the complexity of the problem space the doctor had to navigate to reach that decision. They wish the doctor would chart the parameter space for them, so they can agree or disagree with the choice in an informed manner, and have more of a clue about the competence of th…

I'm saving that paragraph. That was a fantastic explaination.

Re: How doctors choose to die (2012)

#17

Post by shazad » Wed, Mar 25, 2015, 2:33 AM UTC

Atul Gawande, who's written extensively on end of life issues, had an excellent one hour Frontline special that covered the same topic. I highly recommend watching it if you're interested at all in how terminal illness and dying are handled in the United States today: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/being-mortal/

Re: How doctors choose to die (2012)

#18

Post by themartorana » Wed, Mar 25, 2015, 2:39 AM UTC

sago wrote: post #15

This is anecdotal evidence from a small (2) sample. But not all doctors die without treatment at home. Some (many?) are aware of the drugs they need to hasten their demise in a way that minimises their suffering. One doctor I discussed this with said that assisted suicide, in a very limited and measured way, isn't uncommon, if you know what to look for. As someone with a degenerative incurable condition, I'd like the…

It's really hard to change perceptions about death when it requires considering one's own mortality. It is in this only that I understand the desperate quest for religion. The idea of going dark forever is terrifying to me, and considering I'm pretty much an atheist, I don't have much hope of anything else. When people ask me if I'm religious, I usually tell them I'm hopeful that I'm proven wrong.

I know we all die. I know our lives on a cosmic scale are infinitesimal. But even I - as rational as I am, am extremely scared of facing that reality head on.

So convincing the entire nation/world to do so... Well, good luck with that.

Re: How doctors choose to die (2012)

#19

Post by hkmurakami » Wed, Mar 25, 2015, 2:40 AM UTC

screature2 wrote: post #5

Can't speak for other people, but the fascination for me is a combination of decisions that are difficult and universal and then watching to see how subject matter experts (who view this stuff on a day to day basis) choose for themselves. I think this invariably results in deeply moving meditations on mortality and dignity from both sides of the table (care provider and patient). Or maybe I'm just suffering a recency…

There's also a factor of compliance and regulation that affects what doctors are able to say to their patients.

Re: How doctors choose to die (2012)

#20

Post by sago » Wed, Mar 25, 2015, 2:48 AM UTC

themartorana wrote: post #18

sago wrote: post #15

This is anecdotal evidence from a small (2) sample. But not all doctors die without treatment at home. Some (many?) are aware of the drugs they need to hasten their demise in a way that minimises their suffering. One doctor I discussed this with said that assisted suicide, in a very limited and measured way, isn't uncommon, if you know what to look for. As someone with a degenerative incurable condition, I'd like the…

It's really hard to change perceptions about death when it requires considering one's own mortality. It is in this only that I understand the desperate quest for religion. The idea of going dark forever is terrifying to me, and considering I'm pretty much an atheist, I don't have much hope of anything else. When people ask me if I'm religious, I usually tell them I'm hopeful that I'm proven wrong. I know we all die.…

It doesn't frighten me. It won't go dark forever. Just as there was no 13.5bn years of darkness before I was born. There will be no qualia of time.

I think attitudes are changing. The campaign to be able to determine how and when we die is shaping up to be a significant battle for a fundamental civil right. I think we'll win it. Whether it is soon enough for my wife to avoid threat of prosecution if she is with me when I choose to act, I don't know. I suspect not.