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Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

theatlantic.com

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Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#41

Post by mixedmath »

Xcelerate wrote: post #35
timr wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say in your profile that you're a graduate student, so I don't understand your point. Are you trying to say that because the software is online, a high school student can do research? Any high school student can download free software. That's not a question. Almost none can understand the math (I say "almost" because I'm sure there's some child prodigy out there who can; the exception makes the rule), and fewer s…

> Almost none can understand the math See this is the point I disagree with. I think plenty of high school students can understand the math necessary to do cutting-edge scientific research. No need for child prodigies at all. Maybe for work that's Nobel prize winning or something, but your average run-of-the-mill PhD student? I imagine tons of 14-18 year olds are capable of it. I was writing my own Metropolis light t…

At this point, it might sound like graduate student bias; but I am also a graduate student, and I also think plenty of high school students can understand the math necessary to do cutting-edge scientific research.

I'm actually a math graduate student, and I've been thinking about how capable a high school student would be of doing math research. This started because two years ago, I was asked to facilitate a summer program for gifted high school students that opens up the possibility of math research for high school students. Interestingly, this too suffered from some of the problems highlighted in the article. Many of the students who got into this program were clearly parentally guided, and they floundered. But many were not, and did really well.

This last summer, I had a pair of students particularly interested in cryptography [I'm a number theorist, and some of my bias comes through]. There is plenty of intersection between content a high schooler can understand and cryptography research, especially if it's interest-driven instead of industry-driven [I don't want to get into trials and travails of cryptographers here].

Would their ideas make money in the "real world of cryptography?" No. But they would make fantastic science fair projects, and they would especially benefit from several months of work instead of the 6 weeks that we had.

tldr; I agree with you. A good number a of high schoolers are capable of performing research.

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#42

Post by [deleted] »

VLM wrote: post #9

This quote shows something really bad, although it wasn't explicitly discussed: "But at the three fairs I’ve attended over the last several years, the unknown rarely makes an appearance. At my son's fair last year, at least a handful of students did the popular "experiment" in which the "scientist" waters plants with three different liquids—one of which is typically soda or detergent—to determine which is best for pl…

[deleted]

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#43

Post by mixedmath »

droopyEyelids wrote: post #2

I feel like it's impossible for many people to acknowledge the fact that the world isn't fair. To me, that's the basic assumption that you have to start with. Afterwords, you're free to figure out how to make things more fair, but if you don't start out understanding that things will always be messed up, you're left with a senseless rant. From what I got through it seems like the author was upset that some parents ca…

I thought about this too. As a math graduate student, I've helped in programs aimed at helping gifted local high schoolers. It's not just me - several math graduate students and professors contribute.

I view this as an excellent opportunity to diffuse a better and deeper understanding, even enjoyment, of mathematics into the community. But I think the author of this article would view this as contributing to systemic unfairness and leading to an uneven playing field.

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#45

Post by bricabrac »

busyant wrote: post #25
martythemaniak wrote: post #5

The Simpsons noticed this phenomenon and proposed a solution 20 years ago. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/79/78/1d/7978... "And the award goes to the kids who clearly didn't have any help from their parents"

I'm right in the middle of this. I have two sons (11 and 8 yo). Yesterday was the cub scouts Pinewood derby. The "kids" each build a 4-wheeled car out of a pinewood block. There are various rules that need to be adhered to. I resisted putting my stamp on the cars, but most of the cars in that derby looked like they were machined by Ferruccio Lamborghini. My kids' cars looked like someone had vomited on a block of pin…

Ha! I can relate to this. When I was a kid I lived in a town near a Boeing plant and several of the kids in the local troops had parents who were Boeing engineers. It quickly became apparent at race time who had access to an industrial wind-tunnel.

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#46

Post by wyager »

hueving wrote: post #32
wyager wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no high school student can do graduate-level scientific research. That's not true. I've seen better (original) science fair work than some PhD theses. It's just 1/1000 students that can pull it off.

And how do you know the student wasn't just a glorified proxy for their mentor?

By knowing them personally, and sometimes working alongside them.

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#47

Post by zo1 »

timr wrote: post #3

I've been disgusted for years by the parade of "winners" of the major science fairs, most of whom have privileged access to research labs, wealth, or both. Because, protip: no high school student can do graduate-level scientific research. When you see that, it means that the student had special access to a lab that was already doing the work. And yet, year after year, these folks are given lucrative scholarships and…

"It's just one more example of the perpetuation of wealth across generations."

You say that as if it's a bad thing. The thing you seem to be complaining about is one of the wonderful things about parenting. I.e. to impart/share/teach/give what you have accumulated over your life. Whether that is something physical, or intangible such as knowledge, makes no difference.

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#48

Post by wyager »

LeonRobrotsky wrote: post #16
wyager wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no high school student can do graduate-level scientific research. That's not true. I've seen better (original) science fair work than some PhD theses. It's just 1/1000 students that can pull it off.

Such as?

All sorts of stuff. A lot of the best, most novel research I saw was just students combining fields that wouldn't normally have much interaction at the university level. There was a lot of cool CS+medicine and MechE+biology research. Some of these projects would go on to present at major industry conferences.

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#49

Post by Xcelerate »

semi-extrinsic wrote: post #36
Xcelerate wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because, protip: no high school student can do graduate-level scientific research Of course they can. I do graduate research in quantum chemistry and molecular dynamics. You can easily do research-class DFT work with a personal computer, open source software, and a strong drive to learn. It's done all the time. Granted, I use Titan for my largest simulations, but I've gotten publications out of work done solely on…

I would say you are wrong. You could reproduce someone else's research. But doing something novel requires that you understand a lot about which pitfalls make the simulation results unphysical, which I'd say takes at least 6 months to learn for a grad student working full time on a new topic.

Sure, it easily takes 6 months to learn the nuances of molecular dynamics. But high school students have tons of free time. Even with cross-country, track practice, and marching band, in high school I still had at least 4 hours of free time a day, 8-12 hours on the weekends, and all four summers in high school included three months of completely empty days. Heck, I had more time back then for research than I do now.

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#50

Post by primitivesuave »

timr wrote: post #37
primitivesuave wrote: post #28

I judge high school engineering projects at the Synopsys Science Fair and California State Science Fair, and have become quite skilled in BS detection. Aside from the usual methods to detect BS, the most revealing question in my experience has been "what problems did you run into while doing this project?" I ask this question to every student regardless of whether I think their project was BS or not, and the response…

...or, you were fooled, and your methodology for BS detection isn't perfect. I've seen, first-hand, kids who were coached to perfection at this sort of thing. And they could easily pass your test: one common pattern is for the kid to be handed a "project" that is pre-conceptualized and nearly complete, and have them do the last 5% of work in consultation with a senior researcher (typically a post-doc). The kid basica…

I get what you're saying. Think about it from the perspective of the dishonest student though - they're handed a project that does some amazing thing, and need to pass it off as their own work. Unless they have the domain knowledge around that amazing thing, they couldn't possibly have done the amazing thing, and science fair bullshitters are generally not willing to put in the time to get a deep understanding of the area their BS'd project is in. The student I mentioned had a deep knowledge of cryptography, and with that understanding and the knowledge of relevant scientific research, was able to build something new that did an amazing thing. But if he was handed that project, I doubt he would have the motivation to research crypto to the extent that he did, or be conversant with another person. And most importantly, he knew what he didn't know.
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