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Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

theatlantic.com

21–30 of 71 posts

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#21
The time I spent with my dad building a model of a turbofan jet engine - with real spinning blades - for our local science fair, is one of my fondest memories of him. And while it is true that he helped a lot we also did all the work together. Just sayin'.

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#22
post #7

I feel like it's impossible for many people to acknowledge the fact that the world isn't fair. To me, that's the basic assumption that you have to start with. Afterwords, you're free to figure out how to make things more fair, but if you don't start out understanding that things will always be messed up, you're left with a senseless rant. From what I got through it seems like the author was upset that some parents ca…

I felt like the author not only decried projects where the kids have access to parental help, but projects where the kids have access to good facilities. And motivation. I'm not sure what's left to measure if we attempted to remove support, facilities, and motivation. The author seems to support the idea that schools should provide more support and facilities. That sounds good, but the outcome of some schools doing t…

"I'm not sure what's left to measure if we attempted to remove support, facilities, and motivation."

Money? Unless that's filed under support.

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#23
post #3

I've been disgusted for years by the parade of "winners" of the major science fairs, most of whom have privileged access to research labs, wealth, or both. Because, protip: no high school student can do graduate-level scientific research. When you see that, it means that the student had special access to a lab that was already doing the work. And yet, year after year, these folks are given lucrative scholarships and…

> Because, protip: no high school student can do graduate-level scientific research

Of course they can. I do graduate research in quantum chemistry and molecular dynamics. You can easily do research-class DFT work with a personal computer, open source software, and a strong drive to learn. It's done all the time.

Granted, I use Titan for my largest simulations, but I've gotten publications out of work done solely on my Macbook Pro.

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#24
post #8

I did a lot of science fairs in high school. I was pretty good at it, too; I'm currently paying for college with the help of some military research scholarships I won at an international science fair. Here's my perspective on the whole thing. Take it as you will. At the regional science fairs (where everyone starts out), there are a lot of people there who are only doing it because they have to. Usually, their high s…

>it's much harder for judges to sniff out people who didn't do original work in the biological sciences category

This applies to biological research all this way up the chain, including research done at top Universities, and by "top men".

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#25

The Simpsons noticed this phenomenon and proposed a solution 20 years ago. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/79/78/1d/7978... "And the award goes to the kids who clearly didn't have any help from their parents"

I'm right in the middle of this. I have two sons (11 and 8 yo).

Yesterday was the cub scouts Pinewood derby. The "kids" each build a 4-wheeled car out of a pinewood block. There are various rules that need to be adhered to. I resisted putting my stamp on the cars, but most of the cars in that derby looked like they were machined by Ferruccio Lamborghini. My kids' cars looked like someone had vomited on a block of pinewood. They did okay in the race, so that made me happy.

On the other hand, my 11 yo has an upcoming science fair at his elementary school. This time, I "became what I hate", because I helped him a little too much. I got lab equipment from work.

We're not doing anything fancy, but my "fingerprints" are all over it. He's making the poster, but I told him that the poster should contain his name and also state "with help from Dad."

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#26
post #14
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I put 10 seconds into it and got the idea of pond water, fresh chlorinated tap water, and collected rain water? You would not see any effect, not with just 3 plants. It's part of the problem - any effect obvious enough to show up with the small resources of a child, is also pretty obvious. I would do different: Have kids reproduce famous known experiments, and get rid of this useless obsession with hypothesis first…

True, would be a learning experience to break out some basic sampling theory (do 10 bean seeds not 1) and break out the digital calipers to get some precision rather than "eh looks bigger" Or... the kitchen dietary scale. I can go to 1/10th of gram on mine and that might work. Also a stealth observation is the hidden assumption that a negative or null result means the experiment was a failure. Personally I've got a g…

"Also a stealth observation is the hidden assumption that a negative or null result means the experiment was a failure."

I want to say that the "science" of the science fair is a sick parody of the real process of science, except the sick parody is itself now the real process.

One of the few things from grad school that still can cause me to momentarily crinkle my eyebrows in annoyance 12 years later is when I was in my machine learning class, and we were told to go use some automated decision tree learning software to go learn something from some data set. I deliberately chose a dataset and question that should have produced a null result, precisely to validate that the technique in question did in fact produce a null result. Despite the fact the professor completely agreed that I correctly converted the data, correctly formulated a hypothesis, correctly tested the hypothesis, and correctly determined the null hypothesis could not be discarded... I took a 50% deduction on the assignment. A thing that was ultimately irrelevant since I still got the max final grade in the course... what furrows my brow isn't the actual bad grade, but what it says about the mentality of what science is, even at that high level.

If that still doesn't sound scandalous to you... and it doesn't sound scandalous to a lot of people at first... consider the outcome if I had not chosen a data set that I expected to be null. Suppose I chose a data set that I expected to be able to learn something from, and I was wrong. (This happens a lot in the real world with real data, after all!) What does this mean? It means that 50% of my grade would have been dependent on me massaging the data until I did get a result. Yow! Real science should not be encouraging people to mine data until they get results like that. And one need not spend very long looking at how real science is done to see this idea is quite pervasive in "real science".

Real science is not compatible with the idea that a non-null result is "success" and a null result is "failure". Success and failure have to do with whether the result, whichever of those things it may be, correlates with reality. Ask a scientist this question directly and there's at least a decent chance they'll mouth words about how important the reality correlation is, but look to their actions and it's all "result = success".

I'm gonna be brutally honest here... my plan is that when the kids hit the science fair age, I'm going to tell them to just do what they need to do to get by, and explain to them what real science is. The two things are in direct conflict, and I'll take real science any day.

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#27
post #8

I did a lot of science fairs in high school. I was pretty good at it, too; I'm currently paying for college with the help of some military research scholarships I won at an international science fair. Here's my perspective on the whole thing. Take it as you will. At the regional science fairs (where everyone starts out), there are a lot of people there who are only doing it because they have to. Usually, their high s…

I think you're spot on with all of this. The only way to do good molecular/cell biological benchwork is with access to a bona-fide lab. I have a suspicion that I could ferret out most of the kids who didn't do the bio work, but I suppose there could be a few who know the nuances of the work really well (or they can make up plausible lies and state them with confidence).

It might be better to restrict these competitions to "engineering". You can do some pretty good engineering/programming even as a youngster.

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#28
I judge high school engineering projects at the Synopsys Science Fair and California State Science Fair, and have become quite skilled in BS detection. Aside from the usual methods to detect BS, the most revealing question in my experience has been "what problems did you run into while doing this project?" I ask this question to every student regardless of whether I think their project was BS or not, and the responses from legitimate students are usually sincere admissions of incompetence, while the response from a BSer is some inconsequential roadblock that they easily overcame. Students who are willing to submit a project where they did not produce the actual content will be willing to pawn off any experience or skill as their own, and will vastly overstate their abilities. The students who are humble about what they have accomplished and understand the full implications of their work are usually the ones who produce original work and win science fairs.

This year, I saw a project where a high school senior used deep power analysis and machine learning to break AES 128 on a microcontroller (https://instagram.com/p/0JzlxBoIaJ/). The student was from a prestigious private school, and the project required an expensive high-precision oscilloscope. Naturally I assumed that he had bought the project off eBay, so I didn't hold back in my questioning. But after I began questioning him, it quickly became clear that this was just an exceptionally bright mind who was willing to put hundreds of hours into deep understanding of a topic and reading the relevant research, before embarking on some original work of his own. He iterated over many possible solutions, and had an incredible demonstration of a working one. When I asked him difficult cryptography questions, he answered them precisely. And when I questioned him on his research methodology, he was humble in acknowledging his shortcomings and truthful in citing the research that guided certain aspects of his project. It is unfair to the exceptional few students capable of producing such a project to assume that all high school students are incapable of doing graduate-level research.

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#29
post #6

Wow a lot of parental angst there. Lets take a paragraph out of that which summarizes this: "Last year my son, who was in third grade at the time, came home with a sheet of paper from his school that listed three categories for appropriate projects: developing a hypothesis and conducting an experiment to test that theory, inventing something new, or researching 'something specific.' The guidelines listed 'whales' as…

I thought that was odd as well. I call boys at age around 7-8 as being "in the dinosaur phase", because that's when it seems a lot of boys get really excited about dinosaurs and read up a lot on them, spouting info. And if not dinosaurs, then football cards or similar.

I wouldn't expect an 8-year-old to 'evaluate the trustworthiness of a source', but I think that that's not what is actually expected of the students, and that it's just the parent trying to shoehorn in everything an adult is supposed to do when researching.

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#30
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no high school student can do graduate-level scientific research. That's not true. I've seen better (original) science fair work than some PhD theses. It's just 1/1000 students that can pull it off.

Such as?

I went to a national science fair with a friend who (completely on his own) came up with a novel, patentable way of reducing drag on ships. I don't remember the details, but he went to the international stage with it, justifiably, and there was a fair bit of fluid dynamics involved.

For me, science fair was the only thing that kept me going to school. (Indeed, I dropped out the next year when I was disallowed from competing.) The project that got me to the nationals was about comparing the efficacy of genetic algorithms against neural networks in a game playing task (with a multi-machine, networked simulator); looking back, it was a big mess, and there was a lot of dumbness (that, if I had had even one mentor, could have been rooted out), but it wasn't dissimilar from unambitious master's projects in the CS department at my local university. Many projects at the national level were much more sophisticated.

Like any school competitions (does the author think math and programming contests are any different?), people with ambitious parents who push their children, and especially children in private schools (that often dedicate class time to working on these competitions), have a massive presence at the higher levels. But what's nice is that you don't have to have any of that to get to those higher levels, either. Motivation is a funny thing.

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