Science Fairs Aren't So Fair • Hacker News Board

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#31

Post by timr » Sun, Mar 15, 2015, 10:36 PM UTC

Xcelerate wrote: post #23

timr wrote: post #3

I've been disgusted for years by the parade of "winners" of the major science fairs, most of whom have privileged access to research labs, wealth, or both. Because, protip: no high school student can do graduate-level scientific research. When you see that, it means that the student had special access to a lab that was already doing the work. And yet, year after year, these folks are given lucrative scholarships and…

> Because, protip: no high school student can do graduate-level scientific research Of course they can. I do graduate research in quantum chemistry and molecular dynamics. You can easily do research-class DFT work with a personal computer, open source software, and a strong drive to learn. It's done all the time. Granted, I use Titan for my largest simulations, but I've gotten publications out of work done solely on…

You say in your profile that you're a graduate student, so I don't understand your point. Are you trying to say that because the software is online, a high school student can do research?

Any high school student can download free software. That's not a question. Almost none can understand the math (I say "almost" because I'm sure there's some child prodigy out there who can; the exception makes the rule), and fewer still can conceptualize a question within the field that counts as scientific research.

The few (if any) prodigies who can surmount those hurdles are, by definition, already graduate-level researchers in the field, and are not piddling around with high school science fairs.

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#32

Post by hueving » Sun, Mar 15, 2015, 10:41 PM UTC

wyager wrote: post #10

timr wrote: post #3

I've been disgusted for years by the parade of "winners" of the major science fairs, most of whom have privileged access to research labs, wealth, or both. Because, protip: no high school student can do graduate-level scientific research. When you see that, it means that the student had special access to a lab that was already doing the work. And yet, year after year, these folks are given lucrative scholarships and…

> no high school student can do graduate-level scientific research. That's not true. I've seen better (original) science fair work than some PhD theses. It's just 1/1000 students that can pull it off.

And how do you know the student wasn't just a glorified proxy for their mentor?

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#33

Post by mynameishere » Sun, Mar 15, 2015, 10:50 PM UTC

martythemaniak wrote: post #5

The Simpsons noticed this phenomenon and proposed a solution 20 years ago. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/79/78/1d/7978... "And the award goes to the kids who clearly didn't have any help from their parents"

That wasn't a science fair, it was a geography pageant. This was a science fair:

Behold gravity, in all its glory!

http://37.media.tumblr.com/96643a967724c72c1b17bb0ef2d851c4/...

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#34

Post by Dewie » Sun, Mar 15, 2015, 10:53 PM UTC

droopyEyelids wrote: post #2

I feel like it's impossible for many people to acknowledge the fact that the world isn't fair. To me, that's the basic assumption that you have to start with. Afterwords, you're free to figure out how to make things more fair, but if you don't start out understanding that things will always be messed up, you're left with a senseless rant. From what I got through it seems like the author was upset that some parents ca…

I agree, to a degree (we're all going to draw a different line in the sand on "fair").

Imagine a kid who has had the best environment possible: his parents were some kind of scientists, encouraged his interest in the same thing, and had access to the proper facilities. Another kid has parents that don't care about any kind of science, and were too poor to indulge his interest beyond letting him buy some books and lend them at the library.

If the first kid wins some prize over the other[1], it's not a prize saying "you did best given equal starting points". It just says that he did the best.

If you want to measure something other than skill in science X, like having the best willpower and drive irrespective of background and talent, then you should come up with another competition.

[1] And they both did the work themselves, to a reasonable degree. Not something that the parents did for them.

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#35

Post by Xcelerate » Sun, Mar 15, 2015, 10:55 PM UTC

timr wrote: post #31

Xcelerate wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because, protip: no high school student can do graduate-level scientific research Of course they can. I do graduate research in quantum chemistry and molecular dynamics. You can easily do research-class DFT work with a personal computer, open source software, and a strong drive to learn. It's done all the time. Granted, I use Titan for my largest simulations, but I've gotten publications out of work done solely on…

You say in your profile that you're a graduate student, so I don't understand your point. Are you trying to say that because the software is online, a high school student can do research? Any high school student can download free software. That's not a question. Almost none can understand the math (I say "almost" because I'm sure there's some child prodigy out there who can; the exception makes the rule), and fewer s…

> Almost none can understand the math

See this is the point I disagree with. I think plenty of high school students can understand the math necessary to do cutting-edge scientific research. No need for child prodigies at all.

Maybe for work that's Nobel prize winning or something, but your average run-of-the-mill PhD student? I imagine tons of 14-18 year olds are capable of it.

I was writing my own Metropolis light transport programs when I was 17 by looking up articles on WoS and Google Scholar. Now I'm doing the same kind of thing -- just with MD instead. I don't think I've become any more intelligent since high school (or even that much more knowledgeable), and in fact, I was probably better at focusing back then than I am now since I didn't have so many distractions in my life. There's nothing atypical about me; I'm nowhere near the level of "genius", and I was not a child prodigy. So yes, I'm quite sure of my statement.

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#36

Post by semi-extrinsic » Sun, Mar 15, 2015, 10:57 PM UTC

Xcelerate wrote: post #23

timr wrote: post #3

I've been disgusted for years by the parade of "winners" of the major science fairs, most of whom have privileged access to research labs, wealth, or both. Because, protip: no high school student can do graduate-level scientific research. When you see that, it means that the student had special access to a lab that was already doing the work. And yet, year after year, these folks are given lucrative scholarships and…

> Because, protip: no high school student can do graduate-level scientific research Of course they can. I do graduate research in quantum chemistry and molecular dynamics. You can easily do research-class DFT work with a personal computer, open source software, and a strong drive to learn. It's done all the time. Granted, I use Titan for my largest simulations, but I've gotten publications out of work done solely on…

I would say you are wrong. You could reproduce someone else's research. But doing something novel requires that you understand a lot about which pitfalls make the simulation results unphysical, which I'd say takes at least 6 months to learn for a grad student working full time on a new topic.

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#37

Post by timr » Sun, Mar 15, 2015, 10:58 PM UTC

primitivesuave wrote: post #28

I judge high school engineering projects at the Synopsys Science Fair and California State Science Fair, and have become quite skilled in BS detection. Aside from the usual methods to detect BS, the most revealing question in my experience has been "what problems did you run into while doing this project?" I ask this question to every student regardless of whether I think their project was BS or not, and the response…

...or, you were fooled, and your methodology for BS detection isn't perfect.

I've seen, first-hand, kids who were coached to perfection at this sort of thing. And they could easily pass your test: one common pattern is for the kid to be handed a "project" that is pre-conceptualized and nearly complete, and have them do the last 5% of work in consultation with a senior researcher (typically a post-doc).

The kid basically flails around for a while, struggles a lot, and learns to talk the talk, but doesn't do much of anything in terms of productive work. So they'll struggle like crazy and hang around brilliant, hard-working people (and therefore be humbled and able to pass your test), but that doesn't mean they did the research.

Doing a research project end-to-end takes years of concerted effort. It's almost completely unrealistic to think that a high school senior has put in the time.

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#38

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Mar 15, 2015, 11:04 PM UTC

semi-extrinsic wrote: post #36

Xcelerate wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because, protip: no high school student can do graduate-level scientific research Of course they can. I do graduate research in quantum chemistry and molecular dynamics. You can easily do research-class DFT work with a personal computer, open source software, and a strong drive to learn. It's done all the time. Granted, I use Titan for my largest simulations, but I've gotten publications out of work done solely on…

I would say you are wrong. You could reproduce someone else's research. But doing something novel requires that you understand a lot about which pitfalls make the simulation results unphysical, which I'd say takes at least 6 months to learn for a grad student working full time on a new topic.

[deleted]

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#39

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Mar 15, 2015, 11:10 PM UTC

Xcelerate wrote: post #35

timr wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say in your profile that you're a graduate student, so I don't understand your point. Are you trying to say that because the software is online, a high school student can do research? Any high school student can download free software. That's not a question. Almost none can understand the math (I say "almost" because I'm sure there's some child prodigy out there who can; the exception makes the rule), and fewer s…

> Almost none can understand the math See this is the point I disagree with. I think plenty of high school students can understand the math necessary to do cutting-edge scientific research. No need for child prodigies at all. Maybe for work that's Nobel prize winning or something, but your average run-of-the-mill PhD student? I imagine tons of 14-18 year olds are capable of it. I was writing my own Metropolis light t…

[deleted]

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#40

Post by mrdrozdov » Sun, Mar 15, 2015, 11:10 PM UTC

As a kid, I remember science fairs being an enjoyable time to run around a gymnasium learning about cool things with my friends and classmates. There were two projects that I actually remember vividly. One involved measuring distance using laser pens. The other was about how to make different sounds with wine glasses filled of water. If I dig deep into my memory, I think that I probably had one that involved plants, the light spectrum, a vinegar plus baking soda volcano, plus a few more that all probably came out of a science fair book I found in the library. The point is that none of them were scientifically ground breaking as say a new method for pancreatic cancer detection, but I still got almost perfect grades. I never did win any awards, certainly not any monetary ones, but I learned a considerable amount from the hands on experience.

Since that time, I've gone to a top 10 engineering school, have written research papers, and even have a patent. I'm applying for PhD programs now to study Artificial Intelligence, which I think is as noble a cause as any, and I haven't thought about my science fair experiences until reading this article.

My opinion on the science fair is that it should be more about playfulness and exploration than competition. After all, science should be a team effort rather than a battle royale, and we should worry more about helping one another than whether Sally won because her parent's helped her cut construction paper while Timmy was on his own.

If you are a parent worried that the science fair system is too corrupt, perhaps steer your child towards the rise of high school hackathons. I mentored high school students at MIT's Blueprint and was amazing to see high schoolers deploying machine learning solutions after less than 24 hours. The best part was that the hackathon itself was run by college students who are there to help any way they could, which could be one way to level the playing field.