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When Nerds Collide (2014)

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Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#201

Post by TeMPOraL »

misuba wrote: post #195
TeMPOraL wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not always about just being wounded. Many became "weird nerds" because they don't like the tons of bullshit, politics and signalling games mainstream society lives and breathes. You can't "fix" them without destroying who they really are. I say them, but I myself am a part of this group.

If, by your own admission, you just don't like something, you can't claim that "who [you] really are" is being "destroyed" if you're taught how to avoid injury in dealing with it. Your pet peeves are not a part of you.

It's not really a pet peeve, it's a difference in thinking and perceiving the world.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#202

Post by brennannovak »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #160
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the difference there that goth is a subculture, while tech and software development is a job. Sure, there's also various subcultures in the software development industry, but there isn't one big subculture there. There's the abrasive brogrammers, there's the sensitive political correctness advocates, there's the quiet nerd that just wants to be left alone, there's the hiring manager looking for new employees,…

> I think the difference there that goth is a subculture, while tech and software development is a job. And here I think is the crux of the problem; it's what the article was about. Tech became mainstream, and attracted people who look at it as a job. From the point of view of us native nerds, we became colonized and are being pushed back from the thing we built as our little place in the universe where we would feel…

Damn well said!!! Thanks ;)

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#203

Post by rthomas6 »

tedks wrote: post #191
hyperion2010 wrote: post #26

This article is so spot on and covers many of the things that have bothered me for years about people who try to join nerd communities and then immediately start complaining about "inappropriate behavior" (eg the dongle thing). Yes, there are cases where there is real inappropriate behavior surrounding positions of power in corporate or workplace settings, but in the community at large and in the communal and public…

It's definitely spot-on. I think it has a great example of anti-feminist/male-privileged mindset: > Desire for civility and freedom from objectification is "censorship" > Wanting to not support misogynists/rape apologists/rape denialists/sexual predators is worse than the soviets > My fear of social ostracism is as or more valid than your fear of being raped > My chosen "identities" are as important as the assigned s…

I agree with you 100%, but I feel the need to point out that you can still be a "weird nerd" and have progressive values. I do not think hacker values and progressive values are mutually exclusive, but I think they are orthogonal.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#204

Post by ZeroGravitas »

dropit_sphere wrote: post #172
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people who try to join nerd communities and then immediately start complaining about "inappropriate behavior" (eg the dongle thing) You seem very sure about when Adria Richards (the lady involved in "donglegate") "tried" to join the nerd community. And yet you're wrong. Here's a partial bio from a recent article: "She was introverted, smart, and "weird" (according to the other kids)—a burgeoning nerd. By age 17, sh…

Is the dongle thing even remotely defensible? She got a man fired over a private conversation. One of the rules of civilized behavior is that you don't do that .

In that very article I linked to she points out that it was his employer that fired him, apparently because loudly making rude jokes at a conference while representing them was considered the last straw.

Have you ever complained about any employee at any time for any reason? Does that make you an uncivilized beast?

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#205

Post by Argorak »

sgift wrote: post #194
Argorak wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly the reason why I put up CoCs for example - we define what is inacceptable in a certain space and put it in clear writing to avoid gaming. It binds the organizers as much as the attendees. It cuts out the play. For example, CoCs for dating environments look very differently then those for confs. (did you know there are cuddling meetups and they have very strict rules to ensure people feel comfortable?)…

I think that CoCs are not bad, but the question asked by the article or rather the problem found is: Who writes the CoCs? Who is "we"? My understanding of the article is that there's a "weirdo nerd" group, which has their CoCs. These are rather loosely defined (the weirdos like it this way) and build the status quo (because the weirdos were there first, they defined the space, they wrote the first CoC). Now, various…

The answer to this is really simple: the people running the space. Run you own space, have your own CoC. Done.

If you can't get enough people to stand up and say "we're running a conference for tough as nails abrasive people, make sure you come in armored clothing", that might be a description of a problem.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#206

Post by TeMPOraL »

tedks wrote: post #191
hyperion2010 wrote: post #26

This article is so spot on and covers many of the things that have bothered me for years about people who try to join nerd communities and then immediately start complaining about "inappropriate behavior" (eg the dongle thing). Yes, there are cases where there is real inappropriate behavior surrounding positions of power in corporate or workplace settings, but in the community at large and in the communal and public…

It's definitely spot-on. I think it has a great example of anti-feminist/male-privileged mindset: > Desire for civility and freedom from objectification is "censorship" > Wanting to not support misogynists/rape apologists/rape denialists/sexual predators is worse than the soviets > My fear of social ostracism is as or more valid than your fear of being raped > My chosen "identities" are as important as the assigned s…

What on Earth did I just read... Please tell me that this is a sarcastic comment, because otherwise I can't even begin to address the amount of hostility it advocates. Read seriously, this shows exactly the cancer that is eating tech right now, a memeplex built on signalling and lack of any honesty or civility.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#207

Post by reitanqild »

modfodder wrote: post #184
lucio wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, and this distinction is essential: You're welcomed based on what you can do and not on what you are . "white male" is un-meritocratic, is something you "are", and not something you can "make" by talent and effort. "code" is cold, hard, unforgiving ("you can't argue with a root shell"), and meritocratic. She's saying: Nevermind who you "ARE", you're welcomed if you can "PRODUCE" (great code). That's exactly the an…

I understand what was being said. But in my experience many groups say this but in fact don't even come close to actually achieving it. Groups of white males have said this for a long time, "we are merit based, gender or ethnicity aren't considered during selection", but it just wasn't true. Much of the time it is a conscious decision to avoid the qualified diverse candidate, other times it isn't. Just because she or…

> I understand what was being said. But in my experience many groups say this but in fact don't even come close to actually achieving it. Groups of white males have said this for a long time,

...right in front of our very noses at this moment is something very interesting:

me atleast I don't have a clue what gender most nicks here on HN belong to. And I don't care. The same way I don't care about the gender of our UX designer only that she did awesome work.

- well, maybe I actually loved the fact that we had a coding eclipse-wielding mother-of-three on our team.

And before "you" [1] come telling me that this just shows how I'm biased because I'm impressed by a mom coding, -No! I don't think they cannot, but every statistic tells us they don't usually code.

[1]: yeah I saw you coming, you are kind of predictable

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#208

Post by cmsj »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #160
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the difference there that goth is a subculture, while tech and software development is a job. Sure, there's also various subcultures in the software development industry, but there isn't one big subculture there. There's the abrasive brogrammers, there's the sensitive political correctness advocates, there's the quiet nerd that just wants to be left alone, there's the hiring manager looking for new employees,…

> I think the difference there that goth is a subculture, while tech and software development is a job. And here I think is the crux of the problem; it's what the article was about. Tech became mainstream, and attracted people who look at it as a job. From the point of view of us native nerds, we became colonized and are being pushed back from the thing we built as our little place in the universe where we would feel…

We wanted to make tech be ever more awesome, we told everyone we knew how cool it is, regardless of whether they were interested.

We asked for this, whether we like it or not :)

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#209

Post by zorpner »

dropit_sphere wrote: post #172
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people who try to join nerd communities and then immediately start complaining about "inappropriate behavior" (eg the dongle thing) You seem very sure about when Adria Richards (the lady involved in "donglegate") "tried" to join the nerd community. And yet you're wrong. Here's a partial bio from a recent article: "She was introverted, smart, and "weird" (according to the other kids)—a burgeoning nerd. By age 17, sh…

Is the dongle thing even remotely defensible? She got a man fired over a private conversation. One of the rules of civilized behavior is that you don't do that .

She got a man fired over a private conversation. One of the rules of civilized behavior is that you don't do that.

Briefly ignoring both that she did not "get [him] fired" and that your definition of "private conversation" apparently extends to "conversation in a public place that others can easily hear", there are plenty of obvious situations in which a private conversation can and should result in consequences (sexual harassment and threats being clear examples).

Your position on the rules of civilized behavior is incoherent.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#210

Post by gadders »

reitanqild wrote: post #183
gadders wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of interest, how would you apply the above to Brendan Eich?

That is a sad case of people proving that once the tables got turned the once who once was oppressed will happily deny others the right of free speech. And, the majority, the ones who care less about right and wrong as long as they are on the correct side, will happily follow along, just as they did when Catholics ruled, just as they did when White Straight ruled.

FWIW I'd apply a "does it affect how they behave at work?" test.

If I had a very good developer who was perfectly courteous and professional at work but in his spare time was (say) a member of the Westborough Baptist Church or the Socialist Workers Party I'd not be concerned.

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