When Nerds Collide (2014) • Hacker News Board

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#181

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 4:03 PM UTC

leereeves wrote: post #125

paul wrote: post #49

This article is delightfully thoughtful. Her other post is also worth reading: https://medium.com/@maradydd/okay-feminism-its-time-we-had-a... It makes me wonder though how much nerd culture is driven by forms of autism. Those wishing to end oppression women should be careful that they are not instead perpetuating the oppression of autistic people.

I agree, her other post is also excellent. I wonder if we could ever create a culture that doesn't oppress anyone (with the obvious exception of murderers, rapists, cannibals, etc). I hope so. But in light of our vast differences and the ease with which we hurt one another, I suspect we'll have to settle for a culture that doesn't oppress anyone too much .

[deleted]

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#182

Post by angersock » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 4:11 PM UTC

modfodder wrote: post #81

modfodder wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I would say that first, the threat feminists are often fighting against is the threat of bodily harm and behavior that leads to bodily harm (1 out of 6 women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape¹). Compare this to the threat that nerds are fighting against today, the threat of having to accept those that they deem unworthy. Secondly, I'm not arguing nerds shouldn't have a safe space. But that s…

re: barry-cotter affirmative action: I believe is a necessary evil as white society has refused to correct the wrongs of the past. After 400+ years of systemic physical and economic oppression you can't just expect to say "we're now going to treat you as equals" and everything is ok. That is not to say improvements haven't been made but when power structures are designed to suck the economic and physical power from o…

a true merit based system should provide equally safe and secure environments for all citizens to thrive

Incorrect. The best and worst part of a meritocracy is that, if you don't have merit you don't belong.

There is no obligation to "all citizens". Now, the corollary to this is that, if a citizen proves their merit, they must be rewarded for it, because that's the social contract in play.

But, there is no reason that the system has to reward unproven individuals just because of some diversity quota...in fact, that's a really good way of destroying the ecosystem (same point made in article) because it undermines the very philosophy the group is predicated upon.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#183

Post by reitanqild » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 4:21 PM UTC

gadders wrote: post #157

hyperion2010 wrote: post #26

This article is so spot on and covers many of the things that have bothered me for years about people who try to join nerd communities and then immediately start complaining about "inappropriate behavior" (eg the dongle thing). Yes, there are cases where there is real inappropriate behavior surrounding positions of power in corporate or workplace settings, but in the community at large and in the communal and public…

Out of interest, how would you apply the above to Brendan Eich?

That is a sad case of people proving that once the tables got turned the once who once was oppressed will happily deny others the right of free speech.

And, the majority, the ones who care less about right and wrong as long as they are on the correct side, will happily follow along, just as they did when Catholics ruled, just as they did when White Straight ruled.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#184

Post by modfodder » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 4:21 PM UTC

lucio wrote: post #91

modfodder wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"we aren't against diversity"..."they should make their bones, same as we did" sounds like it could come from any all white male institution. The problem is, we as humans prefer to surround ourselves with people just like us, sometimes that means same race, sometimes same religion, or gender, or political views, and often it happens subconsciously, choosing the person closer to our ideal without us even realizing we'…

No, and this distinction is essential: You're welcomed based on what you can do and not on what you are . "white male" is un-meritocratic, is something you "are", and not something you can "make" by talent and effort. "code" is cold, hard, unforgiving ("you can't argue with a root shell"), and meritocratic. She's saying: Nevermind who you "ARE", you're welcomed if you can "PRODUCE" (great code). That's exactly the an…

I understand what was being said. But in my experience many groups say this but in fact don't even come close to actually achieving it. Groups of white males have said this for a long time, "we are merit based, gender or ethnicity aren't considered during selection", but it just wasn't true. Much of the time it is a conscious decision to avoid the qualified diverse candidate, other times it isn't. Just because she or you say you are only choosing based on production doesn't make it so. She, you, or whomever is making the decision must look really hard at their own biases, if you can even see them (they may be obvious to anyone around you but hidden to your self).

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#185

Post by some_furry » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 4:28 PM UTC

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #121

karmacondon wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is flat out wrong. If a group of people start a hacking or gardening social subculture, then it is "owned" by them. If people start a goth subculture, others who join subsequently don't have a right to say "I don't like all the make up and candles and satantic stuff. If you want to start another club and call yourselves by a different name, that's fine. But you don't 'own' being goth." If someone doesn't like th…

I think the difference there that goth is a subculture, while tech and software development is a job. Sure, there's also various subcultures in the software development industry, but there isn't one big subculture there. There's the abrasive brogrammers, there's the sensitive political correctness advocates, there's the quiet nerd that just wants to be left alone, there's the hiring manager looking for new employees,…

> I think the difference there that goth is a subculture, while tech and software development is a job.

To you, it's a job. To me, it's one of my many hobbies that I enjoy doing. It just turns out that there's more demand in the business world for software engineering than there is for admiring artwork of anthropomorphic creatures or swinging swords around.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#186

Post by Kalium » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 4:37 PM UTC

modfodder wrote: post #47

Kalium wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "we aren't against diversity"..."they should make their bones, same as we did" sounds like it could come from any all white male institution. It could... if you choose to cast it that way. It could also come from any self-selecting group where the selection process is part of the group identity. Group identity isn't just a matter of waking up one day, declaring yourself a member of $GROUP, and $GROUP being obliged…

I don't disagree, but quite often $GROUP lies to itself about who and how it accepts those into the $GROUP. And let's be honest, this isn't a problem if the $GROUP is a bunch of people hanging out in their living room or grabbing a beer once a week, but it does become a problem when the $GROUP is making hiring decisions or when $GROUP decides to harass someone online. Then it is those subconscious selectors that defi…

I think that's an effective commentary on how those outside the group see it defined, rather than one on how the group defines membership.

It's also a commentary on the limits of certain political lenses.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#187

Post by felipeerias » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 4:41 PM UTC

Once upon a time, in a very small part of the developed world, there were a set of activities which provided identity and sense of belonging for introverted people who didn't otherwise fit with mainstream society. That ended up being called "nerd culture".

That "culture" is now prevalent in fields (like computing) that have moved from the fringe to the mainstream in the past decades. Many seem to find it worth preserving, even if that means perpetuating an abrasive and hostile environment.

I've always thought that I had ticked all the checkboxes to be considered a nerd and a hacker. Yet I don't recognise myself at all in the picture that the article paints, and I would not want to live and work in the environment that many here are advocating for.

The author outlines a description of a "hacker" that, to be honest, sounds more like "mildly autistic" to me:

"That guy in the group who stares at you without saying anything? He could be undressing you with his eyes, but I’d lay better odds that he’s paying attention, watching your actions and reactions to build a mental model of how it’s safe to interact with you."

The proportion of introverts (like myself) in the computing field is higher than in society as a whole. Some patience and understanding is therefore needed. But this does not justify treating people poorly because "those are our values and you are a foreigner". I fear that her arguments, well-intentioned as they may be, will do more harm than good.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#188

Post by jenkstom » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 4:41 PM UTC

I'm happy to see somebody discuss this on a deeper level. When one underprivileged group meets another underprivileged group we should be able to discuss what oppression is, how to relate these experiences to each other and how to reduce oppression for everybody.

Current social trends allow and encourage women to raise their oppression above any other form of oppression, as if no man ever got beat up after school or ridiculed for "playing with computers". It's the same excuse that marginalizes male rape victims if the perpetrator was male - or even if the perpetrator was female because "men".

So it has turned into a war of privilege, rather than a discussion of oppression. It's become "Feminist privilege" versus "Nerd privilege" versus "Male privilege". The fact that most nerds are men is just a distraction from the real discussion. The problem isn't the privilege - we're privileged to be alive, and that's a good thing rather than a bad thing.

The problem is the oppression, and "donglegate" and "gamergate" have oppression on both sides. Until we stop trying to raise any particular type of oppression onto a pedestal we aren't going to make any real progress. Let's stop talking about "privilege" and start talking about barriers to personal fulfillment.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#189

Post by modfodder » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 4:43 PM UTC

Lawtonfogle wrote: post #140

modfodder wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I would say that first, the threat feminists are often fighting against is the threat of bodily harm and behavior that leads to bodily harm (1 out of 6 women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape¹). Compare this to the threat that nerds are fighting against today, the threat of having to accept those that they deem unworthy. Secondly, I'm not arguing nerds shouldn't have a safe space. But that s…

>Well, I would say that first, the threat feminists are often fighting against is the threat of bodily harm and behavior that leads to bodily harm Good ol manspreading, such a threat, very scary. As to the rape statistics, those numbers are highly inflated and less inflated numbers show that men are almost as likely (if not equally) to face sexual violence (but far less likely to report it and far more likely to have…

>As to the rape statistics, those numbers are highly inflated and less inflated numbers show that men are almost as likely (if not equally) to face sexual violence (but far less likely to report it and far more likely to have it dismissed) and that men are more likely to face physical violence.

Mind showing evidence that these numbers are highly inflated?

>And now they being invaded by profit-chasers and blamed for the social weirdness that they already did the best they could to get remove from others having to experience.

Yeah, talking about really scary threats here, that is much worse than the threat of rape. This implication that anyone who now enjoys what was only once enjoyed by "nerds" are profit-chasers is a much bigger caricature than self selecting nerds.

If you're under 30 you've spent most of your life in a world surrounded by the internet, computers, and tech. Of course people are going to be attracted to these jobs that used to be the domain of nerds, and some are carpetbaggers, but others, even if they seem too "fashionable" or "social" are just doing what nerds have been doing (and what everyone has been doing) forever, they are following their own interests. It just so happens those interests are now the same as yours.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#190

Post by angersock » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 4:44 PM UTC

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #121

karmacondon wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is flat out wrong. If a group of people start a hacking or gardening social subculture, then it is "owned" by them. If people start a goth subculture, others who join subsequently don't have a right to say "I don't like all the make up and candles and satantic stuff. If you want to start another club and call yourselves by a different name, that's fine. But you don't 'own' being goth." If someone doesn't like th…

I think the difference there that goth is a subculture, while tech and software development is a job. Sure, there's also various subcultures in the software development industry, but there isn't one big subculture there. There's the abrasive brogrammers, there's the sensitive political correctness advocates, there's the quiet nerd that just wants to be left alone, there's the hiring manager looking for new employees,…

Thirding what my sibling commenters are saying, just for the additional data point.

The article was about hackers, the set of outcasts that self-identify based on rough consensus and running code and merit. The article wasn't about hackers, the buzzword that is good to have on your meetup and LinkedIn profile.

Such is the extent of the appropriation of hacker culture--there is this weird notion that workplace professionalism (whatever that is) somehow now has to be embraced by people claiming to be hackers. It's bullshit.