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When Nerds Collide (2014)

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Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#151

Post by Kalium »

lucio wrote: post #97
Kalium wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For an interesting experiment, show this article to the sort of people it's about. Don't tell them the author is an autistic woman. Observe their reactions. Then provide them that background and repeat observations.

That's a GREAT experiment. A hacker will not change his opinions on the article, either good or bad. He might even ask "so?". A non-hacker hating the article will mutate opinion, and now regard the piece as an inspiring essay from a challenged minority.

Exactly. I've conducted this experiment myself. One self-proclaimed geek feminist went from a very hostile reaction to what was perceived as something aimed at economic exclusion to a sympathetic reaction to a woman bemoaning assaults on the culture she values.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#152

Post by sthreet »

Argorak wrote: post #66
hyperion2010 wrote: post #26

This article is so spot on and covers many of the things that have bothered me for years about people who try to join nerd communities and then immediately start complaining about "inappropriate behavior" (eg the dongle thing). Yes, there are cases where there is real inappropriate behavior surrounding positions of power in corporate or workplace settings, but in the community at large and in the communal and public…

I don't see anything what you describe as inherent and necessary to nerd culture. What you want is an abrasive culture and I oppose that. I certainly never "left the world" and certainly not because I found all those things useless or oppressive. I can still nerd out on a multitude of subjects from music to board games to digital culture and I do prefer to do it with people that don't use this culture as a reason to…

I have no experience in this, but I don't feel like anything from the article is "abrasive", or even really anything from the previous poster you replied to.

Sidenote: The word "hacker" doesn't seem to mean anything anymore, it has been used in so many different ways that it has become too ambiguous. I personally like the phrase "weird nerd" better, because it might be a little more specific, and it is how I feel. (Probably doesn't help that I don't have the skills that seem to go along with "weird nerds"/"hackers".)

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#153

Post by ZeroGravitas »

hyperion2010 wrote: post #26

This article is so spot on and covers many of the things that have bothered me for years about people who try to join nerd communities and then immediately start complaining about "inappropriate behavior" (eg the dongle thing). Yes, there are cases where there is real inappropriate behavior surrounding positions of power in corporate or workplace settings, but in the community at large and in the communal and public…

> people who try to join nerd communities and then immediately start complaining about "inappropriate behavior" (eg the dongle thing)

You seem very sure about when Adria Richards (the lady involved in "donglegate") "tried" to join the nerd community. And yet you're wrong.

Here's a partial bio from a recent article:

"She was introverted, smart, and "weird" (according to the other kids)—a burgeoning nerd.

By age 17, she'd fallen in love with computers. A year later, she was working at Geeksquad, employee #26, and she absorbed everything she could about hardware, operating systems, and networks. That summer, she registered her first domain name for a client for whom she was building a website, and learned about DNS. She buried herself in books and scoured websites, learning new things and trying them out, relying on friends whose parents had more resources to get access to hardware."

http://www.shakesville.com/2015/02/the-falsest-of-false-equi...

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#154

Post by mcguire »

hyperion2010 wrote: post #26

This article is so spot on and covers many of the things that have bothered me for years about people who try to join nerd communities and then immediately start complaining about "inappropriate behavior" (eg the dongle thing). Yes, there are cases where there is real inappropriate behavior surrounding positions of power in corporate or workplace settings, but in the community at large and in the communal and public…

Note:

"The only way forward is REAL tolerance for all kinds of behavior and a good faith attempt to see people in context."

This only applies when a member of the group has been caught doing somethings stupid. If someone "trying to join" the group has complaints, there is no need for tolerance. "Nerd culture", for example, has its own standards of "appropriate".

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#155

Post by mcguire »

blfr wrote: post #89
Argorak wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see anything what you describe as inherent and necessary to nerd culture. What you want is an abrasive culture and I oppose that. I certainly never "left the world" and certainly not because I found all those things useless or oppressive. I can still nerd out on a multitude of subjects from music to board games to digital culture and I do prefer to do it with people that don't use this culture as a reason to…

What you want is an abrasive culture and I oppose that. Why? Why can't hyperion2010, or anyone else, have an abrasive culture if they want to? There is nowadays some controversy about, best as I can tell, gamers who like abrasive gaming, ie. shoot and insult each other. I can see how one might not want to participate, but why the need to force them to stop? Wouldn't leaving them to it be a reasonable solution? If som…

Absolutely. If someone doesn't like the abrasion, all they have to do is not participate in the activity. Not play the games, not go to the con's, not get a job in the industry.

Let them take up knitting.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#156

Post by mcguire »

kaitai wrote: post #146
blfr wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you want is an abrasive culture and I oppose that. Why? Why can't hyperion2010, or anyone else, have an abrasive culture if they want to? There is nowadays some controversy about, best as I can tell, gamers who like abrasive gaming, ie. shoot and insult each other. I can see how one might not want to participate, but why the need to force them to stop? Wouldn't leaving them to it be a reasonable solution? If som…

I don't necessarily disagree with you, blfr... but: If people like hyperion2010 or others want an abrasive culture, why can't they take what they dish? Why is it so ok for someone to call me a c*&t but I can't say the words "male privilege"?

Because they're on the inside and you're on the outside.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#157

Post by gadders »

hyperion2010 wrote: post #26

This article is so spot on and covers many of the things that have bothered me for years about people who try to join nerd communities and then immediately start complaining about "inappropriate behavior" (eg the dongle thing). Yes, there are cases where there is real inappropriate behavior surrounding positions of power in corporate or workplace settings, but in the community at large and in the communal and public…

Out of interest, how would you apply the above to Brendan Eich?

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#158

Post by MollyR »

arrrg wrote: post #108
lucio wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, and this distinction is essential: You're welcomed based on what you can do and not on what you are . "white male" is un-meritocratic, is something you "are", and not something you can "make" by talent and effort. "code" is cold, hard, unforgiving ("you can't argue with a root shell"), and meritocratic. She's saying: Nevermind who you "ARE", you're welcomed if you can "PRODUCE" (great code). That's exactly the an…

Meritocracy is a bullshit term. It does not exist in reality. It’s an illusion, a joke.

True, but I've noticed programming like some of the other STEM fields are a lot harder to fake skills than some other fields.

I'm not saying its impossible to fake development skills, just saying its harder than some other fields. I think primarily due to the fact computers are not forgiving, but require pure logic.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#159

Post by ejk314 »

wcummings wrote: post #137

I didn't go to public school, is it really as 80's-teen-movie-tropes as pieces like this make it sound? It's just really hard for me to take seriously.

To an outside observer, no. The tropes are exaggerations. But to someone in public school at the time, it can certainly feel that way.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#160

Post by TeMPOraL »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #121
karmacondon wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is flat out wrong. If a group of people start a hacking or gardening social subculture, then it is "owned" by them. If people start a goth subculture, others who join subsequently don't have a right to say "I don't like all the make up and candles and satantic stuff. If you want to start another club and call yourselves by a different name, that's fine. But you don't 'own' being goth." If someone doesn't like th…

I think the difference there that goth is a subculture, while tech and software development is a job. Sure, there's also various subcultures in the software development industry, but there isn't one big subculture there. There's the abrasive brogrammers, there's the sensitive political correctness advocates, there's the quiet nerd that just wants to be left alone, there's the hiring manager looking for new employees,…

> I think the difference there that goth is a subculture, while tech and software development is a job.

And here I think is the crux of the problem; it's what the article was about. Tech became mainstream, and attracted people who look at it as a job. From the point of view of us native nerds, we became colonized and are being pushed back from the thing we built as our little place in the universe where we would feel safe from the society calling us "weirdos". It's not just a clash of cultures, it feels like an invasion - contemporary tech industry is not the place it used to be. As a native tech nerd I honestly feel threatened by it.

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