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When Nerds Collide (2014)

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Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#81

Post by modfodder »

modfodder wrote: post #68
dropit_sphere wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is what [the forces of D]iversity [are] (or should be) fighting against, it really is trying to make it merit based which goes against our survival instincts, even those of the "nerds". How exactly do you expect a group to react when you push against its survival instincts? Feminism is accused of this most often, so I'll use it as an example: some have accused the feminist movement of sexism because it simultan…

Well, I would say that first, the threat feminists are often fighting against is the threat of bodily harm and behavior that leads to bodily harm (1 out of 6 women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape¹). Compare this to the threat that nerds are fighting against today, the threat of having to accept those that they deem unworthy. Secondly, I'm not arguing nerds shouldn't have a safe space. But that s…

re: barry-cotter

affirmative action: I believe is a necessary evil as white society has refused to correct the wrongs of the past. After 400+ years of systemic physical and economic oppression you can't just expect to say "we're now going to treat you as equals" and everything is ok. That is not to say improvements haven't been made but when power structures are designed to suck the economic and physical power from one group of people still today (i.e. Ferguson, MO), then drastic measures are necessary. I'd prefer a merit based system, but a true merit based system should provide equally safe and secure environments for all citizens to thrive.

> or online public spaces (where everyone should be treated with respect regardless of the merit metric). This is bullshit.

Yeah, I agree. It is more wishful than true. I would say everyone should be treated with respect up and until, but then it is always a question of who is measuring. But it doesn't take much for some real vile shit to bubble up unfortunately. Sometimes it's just the edge cases (usually blamed on a small minority of the group), but often it comes from the middle as well or is representative of the groups mindspace.

(If all that makes sense. It's 5am and I'm still up working so I may just be rambling).

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#83

Post by CmonDev »

hueving wrote: post #76
Animats wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SF has been 80% posers for decades. That's why the art and music scenes in SF are so bad. In NYC, they tell you if you suck. In LA, if you suck they don't call you back. In SF, there's no judgment or criticism, and you can suck forever.

Nobody cares about the art scene in SF vs NYC and LA. Take that discussion elsewhere.

That's not even art. HN appreciates art.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#84

Post by nailer »

dagw wrote: post #71
hyperion2010 wrote: post #26

This article is so spot on and covers many of the things that have bothered me for years about people who try to join nerd communities and then immediately start complaining about "inappropriate behavior" (eg the dongle thing). Yes, there are cases where there is real inappropriate behavior surrounding positions of power in corporate or workplace settings, but in the community at large and in the communal and public…

The dongle thing didn't take place at a "nerd community" event, but at a professional conference. The problem, as it where, is that computers and programming is no longer the exclusive domain of the so called "nerd" and I don't think we should make joining a subculture a prerequisite for joining a career path.

I don't think anyone required anyone else to join that subculture when making that joke to their friend.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#85

Post by belorn »

dagw wrote: post #71
hyperion2010 wrote: post #26

This article is so spot on and covers many of the things that have bothered me for years about people who try to join nerd communities and then immediately start complaining about "inappropriate behavior" (eg the dongle thing). Yes, there are cases where there is real inappropriate behavior surrounding positions of power in corporate or workplace settings, but in the community at large and in the communal and public…

The dongle thing didn't take place at a "nerd community" event, but at a professional conference. The problem, as it where, is that computers and programming is no longer the exclusive domain of the so called "nerd" and I don't think we should make joining a subculture a prerequisite for joining a career path.

The dongle "thing" did not take place at a nerd community nor a professional conference. It took place in a private conversation between two people who happened to be at a professional conference.

The distinction is the same as if they were seated in a coffee shop. Conversations there are between private people, not with some coffee shop "audience". People who listen in to such conversation, and worse, reacts to it, are doing something which polite people consider very rude.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#86

Post by nailer »

pekk wrote: post #63
fr0styMatt2 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does calling people 'brogrammers' in a derogatory sense make us any different than the supposed 'cool kids' that rejected us? Shouldn't we strive to be better than that? (not saying that you are using the term 'brogrammer' like that, just posing a more general question).

If we are interested in certain things that are not mainstream, and then other people who aren't really interested in those things come in and screw things up for interested people by acting in a selfish and conceited and exclusionary way, and we call those people jackasses or brogrammers or whatever, that doesn't make us the same as them. It's just an observation. And any culture worth its salt rejects forces active…

Really? I thought brogrammers were programmers that exercise and aren't introverted. Never really considered brogrammers to be a 'force trying to tear down programming'. At least that describes everyone I've ever met described that way, including some very talented, welcoming people.

Likewise, some of the most technically talented people in node identify as feminists.

Thinking about it (which I'm forced to because my Twitter timeline is full of this), I don't think anyone really is trying to tear down programming. I think the problem is the false narratives we tell ourselves about the other side.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#87

Post by pjc50 »

tajen wrote: post #53
angersock wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that we even have a collective shared-ideal of "we judge you by your work" is an achievement worth celebrating and continuing, even if we individually fail at it, or even fail at it a lot. And that's the problem I've got with a bunch of the attacks I'll commonly see that are based on privilege: the entire idea is that "well, no, that cool hack doesn't count somehow, because you're a member of $MALIGNED_GROUP…

I'm surprised there is so little controversy in this thread of HN. After all, most comments here confirm that we're a group and we like us as-is, or with very minimal changes, which is already a reluctance to diversity. On the one hand maybe the title didn't appeal for a pageview by the controversial types of feminigeeks [vocabulary from this article], and the other hand this is the kind of place where our culture ge…

It's been going on for a lot longer than 2013. I was listening to a friend of mine complain about not being taken seriously and attracting a trail of irritating admirers when we were both undergraduates 15 years ago.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#89

Post by blfr »

Argorak wrote: post #66
hyperion2010 wrote: post #26

This article is so spot on and covers many of the things that have bothered me for years about people who try to join nerd communities and then immediately start complaining about "inappropriate behavior" (eg the dongle thing). Yes, there are cases where there is real inappropriate behavior surrounding positions of power in corporate or workplace settings, but in the community at large and in the communal and public…

I don't see anything what you describe as inherent and necessary to nerd culture. What you want is an abrasive culture and I oppose that. I certainly never "left the world" and certainly not because I found all those things useless or oppressive. I can still nerd out on a multitude of subjects from music to board games to digital culture and I do prefer to do it with people that don't use this culture as a reason to…

What you want is an abrasive culture and I oppose that.

Why? Why can't hyperion2010, or anyone else, have an abrasive culture if they want to?

There is nowadays some controversy about, best as I can tell, gamers who like abrasive gaming, ie. shoot and insult each other. I can see how one might not want to participate, but why the need to force them to stop? Wouldn't leaving them to it be a reasonable solution?

If some nerds prefer a different code of conduct than you, can you really oppose that? Do you really think you can or should go into their group and tell them how they should behave?

What happened to live and let live?

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#90

Post by whybroke »

Where physically will weirdos live? The bay area was certainly a haven of which only a subset were technologist. And from that culture and thinking came many of the technical miracles of our age, many ideologically driven.

My concern is really painfully mundane: uncontrolled cost of living increase means there could never be a mass migration of free thinkers to the bay area today.

So individual programmers being gradually displaced in a technologist's social setting today is just a sliver of that larger displacement with its very basic cause.

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