When Nerds Collide (2014) • Hacker News Board

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#121

Post by Cthulhu_ » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 12:40 PM UTC

karmacondon wrote: post #110

samastur wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here is that hacking, gardening or whatever else people do is not "owned" by those who practice it currently or did before others and neither should it be. If they wanted to start their own Abrasive gardening club, where they would be abrasive to each other, then not many people would complain. I don't think it would be healthy, but they are free to do so. What they aren't free to do without push-back is…

This is flat out wrong. If a group of people start a hacking or gardening social subculture, then it is "owned" by them. If people start a goth subculture, others who join subsequently don't have a right to say "I don't like all the make up and candles and satantic stuff. If you want to start another club and call yourselves by a different name, that's fine. But you don't 'own' being goth." If someone doesn't like th…

I think the difference there that goth is a subculture, while tech and software development is a job. Sure, there's also various subcultures in the software development industry, but there isn't one big subculture there. There's the abrasive brogrammers, there's the sensitive political correctness advocates, there's the quiet nerd that just wants to be left alone, there's the hiring manager looking for new employees, etcetera. All of those people are different, unlike goths which is a more clearly defined subculture.

Maybe the analogy would be a goth at an alternative conference, where you have emos, punk, neon-hair cyberpunk people, SM enthousiasts, etcetera. What's acceptable for one subculture (say, smoking in public, to use the South Park stereotype) may not be appropriate for the other.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#122

Post by bsdpython » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 12:43 PM UTC

It's an interesting and complex subject but ultimately defining what makes a "true" nerd is a never ending debate. My professor in college was incredulous when he found out that I, a CS major, never watched Star Trek. The nerve!

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#123

Post by sgift » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 12:48 PM UTC

calibraxis wrote: post #95

hyperion2010 wrote: post #26

This article is so spot on and covers many of the things that have bothered me for years about people who try to join nerd communities and then immediately start complaining about "inappropriate behavior" (eg the dongle thing). Yes, there are cases where there is real inappropriate behavior surrounding positions of power in corporate or workplace settings, but in the community at large and in the communal and public…

I'm in "nerd culture". If it's too brittle to fit the needs of people in it, to hell with it. Change or die. I'm reminded of Grigori Perelman's critique of mathematicians: "But almost all of them are conformists." "It is not people who break ethical standards who are regarded as aliens. It is people like me who are isolated." If anyone of us is a nerd and can't improve their own culture, GTFO. And take your "dongles"…

Or "nerd culture" could eliminate you and all the others trying to force change. There's no evidence that you are anything but a oxygen waster, so why should it hold back when you attack first?

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#124

Post by throwaway9324 » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 12:51 PM UTC

karmacondon wrote: post #110

samastur wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here is that hacking, gardening or whatever else people do is not "owned" by those who practice it currently or did before others and neither should it be. If they wanted to start their own Abrasive gardening club, where they would be abrasive to each other, then not many people would complain. I don't think it would be healthy, but they are free to do so. What they aren't free to do without push-back is…

This is flat out wrong. If a group of people start a hacking or gardening social subculture, then it is "owned" by them. If people start a goth subculture, others who join subsequently don't have a right to say "I don't like all the make up and candles and satantic stuff. If you want to start another club and call yourselves by a different name, that's fine. But you don't 'own' being goth." If someone doesn't like th…

The people who claim "hacking" today didn't start it. In fact "hacking", to the extent it ever had a common definition, has changed to accommodate the people that are more interested in being part of some culture rather than having an interest in technology.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#125

Post by leereeves » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 1:03 PM UTC

paul wrote: post #49

This article is delightfully thoughtful. Her other post is also worth reading: https://medium.com/@maradydd/okay-feminism-its-time-we-had-a... It makes me wonder though how much nerd culture is driven by forms of autism. Those wishing to end oppression women should be careful that they are not instead perpetuating the oppression of autistic people.

I agree, her other post is also excellent.

I wonder if we could ever create a culture that doesn't oppress anyone (with the obvious exception of murderers, rapists, cannibals, etc). I hope so. But in light of our vast differences and the ease with which we hurt one another, I suspect we'll have to settle for a culture that doesn't oppress anyone too much.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#126

Post by forgottenpass » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 1:09 PM UTC

pseudoplatypus wrote: post #24

Yhippa wrote: post #15

The brogrammers and geek feminists won. There's no turning back.

... and with that victory, they have given rise to generations of new weird-nerds that no longer feel as much as outsiders. Ok, I went there for the sake of the quote, but as someone who spent most of high-school maintaining an online forum about nerd topics on a Hardened Gentoo[1] Pentium III[2] server in the floor of his own bedroom; I still find I cannot quite empathize with the fear of "insiders"/"normals" that t…

Yeah, tech went mainstream and blockbuster movies are made out of cult classic books. That's one of the points in the post, those things used to be signals of particular kind of person but are no longer.

There are no three cliques against other! There are many ideas, associated with different stereotypes, let's try not to pit armies of stereotypes against each other, and be open to the ideas!

In broad strokes I agree with you. For a few reasons, not the least of which because I don't exactly agree with the authors analysis. I differ from you in specific as there is a difference between being accepting of the ideas and people who live them, versus adopting it for myself. Being "open to" an idea means the former, yet often euphemistically implies the latter.

I see the author's point in the way people with more social power than myself ask for my conformity, to their benefit and my cost. It's framed so politely, everything is these days, but sometimes I don't want to adopt another persons standards. Only then do you see how serious they are about getting you to conform.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#127

Post by Argorak » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 1:16 PM UTC

malandrew wrote: post #115

Argorak wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly the reason why I put up CoCs for example - we define what is inacceptable in a certain space and put it in clear writing to avoid gaming. It binds the organizers as much as the attendees. It cuts out the play. For example, CoCs for dating environments look very differently then those for confs. (did you know there are cuddling meetups and they have very strict rules to ensure people feel comfortable?)…

The way I see it, any space with written rules (e.g. CoCs) are essentially spaces with restrictions that dilute cultures so that several cultures with a narrow shared interest can mingle productively. Codes of Conduct are essentially anti-cultural for the sake of achieving collaboration between cultures that share a common interest. This isn't a bad thing. It's certainly productive in ways and produces something of v…

> The moment you're thinking in dichotomous terms like "the organizers" and "the attendees"

Hold it right there. I run the space, I raise the money, I sign the contracts, I'm can be held responsible if someone misbehaves (morally and legally) and I'm the person that doesn't watch the talks, but uses them as a time where they can actually make sure that the next person has their time and the tables are clean?

And "organizer" and "attendee" is a dichotomy? Both are roles and forcibly assuming that everyone plays the same role is harmful.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#128

Post by forgottenpass » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 1:17 PM UTC

anon4 wrote: post #120

hueving wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some scumbag got a guy fired by publicly shaming him on twitter for making a joke to his friend in a private conversation. That is one of the most hostile, weird, and hateful ways I've ever seen someone behave. It's a perfect example of counter-productive, oppressive behavior that was outlined in this article. Do you think getting that guy fired is going to suddenly change his sense of humor? Not likely. If anything,…

From http://www.esquire.co.uk/culture/books/7933/exclusive-extrac... which was linked here not long ago: I asked Hank if he found himself behaving differently since the incident. Had it altered how he lived his life? “I distance myself from female developers a little bit now,” he replied. “I’m not as friendly. There’s humour, but it’s very mundane. You just don’t know. I can’t afford another Donglegate.” So I guess i…

So I guess it poisons his view of the entire gender.

It's pleasing to think that ineffective activism is zero-sum. In reality a lot of people have been turned off to ideas that fit their principles and ideals. Getting them back is going to take much more work than it would have taken to appeal to their principles before they got burned.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#129

Post by Argorak » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 1:19 PM UTC

k__ wrote: post #109

Argorak wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to run eurucamp (I'm on a hiatus), which is a very affordable summer community conference at a lake with impromptu bike rides, canoeing, parties and lots of visitor participation. We have only 1 invited speaker (keynote). We have people setting up podcasts programs for the whole conference just as a _community effort for fun_. On the peak, we ran a 5-day conference set with a one week program around it only on…

I don't say you're an impostor :) I just say all this sounds more like "conference" (= prof) than "hacker space" (= hobby) Both can be fun. I'm from Stuttgart and going to the Shack is a whole different experience than going to any meetup or conference.

They are all hobby, on top of my work time. Many of the attendees are there for fun, especially on eurucamp, off their own pocket. Obviously, 3 days of meeting with 300 international people isn't going to be all random (even things like the CCC only _seem_ hackish).

I do help and attend spontanous meetups of all forms and fashions as well - still, they all have rules and they are all better for it.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#130

Post by throwaway9324 » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 1:21 PM UTC

thequux wrote: post #116

hyperion2010 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to get into the nerd vs geek debate here but my interpretation of TFA was that it was specifically talking about the types of people that simply didn't want to play the social hierarchy game. Just being interested in and doing nerdy/geeky things does not place you in that group (unfortunately the terminology we have does a poor job of distinguishing this). I also don't think there is any implication that…

> Just being interested in and doing nerdy/geeky things does not place you in that group (unfortunately the terminology we have does a poor job of distinguishing this). The two groups are not identical, but the probability of being uninterested in playing the hierarchy game increases significantly when conditioned on being a nerd (and even more so, being in the infosec scene, where the author and I spend most of our…

I'm not sure what you mean. The "infosec scene" has always had stricter social codes than any other form of hacking.